Do we ever learn or do we simply recollect?

"Socrates responds that learning is not a matter of discovering something new but rather of recollecting something the soul knew before birth but has since forgotten. To show what he means, he calls over one of Meno??s slave boys, draws a square with sides of two feet, and asks the boy to calculate how long the side of a square would be if it had twice the area of the one he just drew. The boy suggests four feet and then three feet, and Socrates proves him wrong both times. Socrates then helps the boy recognize that a square of twice the area would have sides with a length equal to the diagonal of the present square—but Socrates leads the boy to this point without actually explaining anything, instead forcing the boy to think the problem through himself. Since the boy reached this conclusion (more or less) on his own without any direct teaching, he must have been recollecting something he already knew."

Does anyone agree with this?

I believe it to be true. I think a lot of times we know the answers to our own questions, we just assume that we have to "learn" them and cannot do so unless someone teaches them to us.

I feel this is due to the fast-pacedness of our culture.

Teaching is almost ironic in a way. It is faster to be told how something is than to experience it to be that way, but how often do we just have to find it out for ourselves? And do not we know the things we learn from experience better than that which we assume to be true because a teacher has told us?

This is not to say teaching is meaningless. It is to say inflection is undervalued and overlooked.

The other day was so beautiful. The sunset was an orange glow and the breeze was alive. The trees magnificent. So I sat on a bench to merely take it all in and was struck by that most uncomfortable feeling. I was on my college campus and as the people walked by it felt as though they expected me to do something.

Lots of people walking by with their heads down in their phones texting. Does anyone else feel this? That in today's world, when you are out in public, you have to be texting, or talking, or in a hurry to get here or there. I wanted to just be. But people think you are strange when you just be. And ironically, I know I am accomplishing more than them.

The text message they sent was frivolous, the things they said to him or her nothing but idle chit chat, and the place they were hurrying to was home.

So they could log onto a social networking site and see what was going on in the news.

But the day was beautiful so I enjoyed it anyways.

I figured it more important than racing to nowhere.

I say all this to say, I find myself like many engaging in the mental masturbation of communication with no substance. I'm recollecting that it is wiser to get points across in as little words as possible. If two men, both wise, rebuke a fool, I feel the wiser was the one who did it in a sentence and the one who gave a speech is his inferior.

That is all.

*side note - I recollect the reason to the over amount of pointless verbage to be our human insecurity for acceptance.

Posted by Samiamascorpio
Wow. For an s&m porn director you sure are insightful.

What you wrote is actually profound and now I have a new perspective to take in.

Thank you.

^^^lol. i think this just made my prof page.

haha. I'm not a porn director. It's an inside joke between yours truly and some of the lovely Lionesses on this here board.

And no problem. I'm glad I caused you to remember something. :]

Posted by Chance11
"Socrates responds that learning is not a matter of discovering something new but rather of recollecting something the soul knew before birth but has since forgotten"

i've always thought this..seems like we're more in tune with this when we're younger. as we grow older, we seem to lose the ability to access it (whether through learned behaviors or environment or whatnot).

I believe we still can access it. More completely than you think. Although, I view it like perfection because it is. We strive to reach it but no one will be in complete connection with their soul till after earthly death. I would just add that it is much harder for us than for the child in a way, as you said. The child is. The adult worries, stresses, contemplates, doubts, ect. into infinity...

on your last two paragraphs-people spend too much time trying to appear smart rather than actually being inquisitive..if one actually listens, their mismatched words and lack of depth in their ideas will give them away every time

click to expand

And amen to that.

Posted by Chance11
didn't disagree with your original assertion..meant 'we' as a society at large..not necessarily myself..or those among us that are truly enlightened and operating on a level that reflects Socrate's original point

Ahh. My bad.

Posted by Jynja
My mother taught me something I never forget - "Blah blah blah went the sheep, and then the wolf ate him." Science has proven when you're quiet, you learn more than if you talk, chew or even smile.

So many people are out to get the world's approval so they do what the world does. Famous wise words from a mentor, "Geniuses stand apart to see differently what the world sees as right."

I love walking out bare feet in my garden or even on the sidewalk. There's a lovely orchard very near where I live and I stroll there without shoes when the weather is nice and beautiful. I expect the strange stares though, so they don't bother me at all.

Feeling sleepy now. Good night, hotness. 🙂

Orchard walks. That sounds lovely...

























mmmm. don't pet my mane like that. you know that leads a lion to dirty thoughts...

Haha. It's 6 one way, half dozen the other. Because that point he's talking to before birth I believe to be a state of pure soul. And if that's what you believe we're going back to when we die, it's kinda the same thing. But I like that. A road. It is a road. An adventure.

Now John Locke would totally disagree and say that we are a complete tabula rasa or "blank slate" at birth and come to the knowledge of the metaphysical through reason and sense data observations but I don't think he would say that the soul holds knowledge and we draw it out like Socrates is saying. But I believe it is a mix of the two.

God made us and we are all slowly finding our way back to Him.

"The end of life is to be like God, and the soul following God will be like Him." -Socrates

Haha. I'm beating the Soc horse to death :p

Depends on whether you learn through observation or abstraction...

Posted by EusiveSoulll
In my humble opinion, I see Socrates` proposition in this instance not entirely impervious for there is rather significant difference between wisdom (inherent) and newly acquired 'knowledge' weather through (quoting incandescentcancer) observation or abstraction.

Knowledge through abstraction is wisdom, no knowledge is inherent.

Posted by Jynja
Is instinct inherent knowledge?

A child would not touch a hot object if it had any such instinctively inherent knowledge.

Posted by EusiveSoulll

Posted by incandescentcancer

Posted by EusiveSoulll
In my humble opinion, I see Socrates` proposition in this instance not entirely impervious for there is rather significant difference between wisdom (inherent) and newly acquired 'knowledge' weather through (quoting incandescentcancer) observation or abstraction.

Knowledge through abstraction is wisdom, no knowledge is inherent.

^^^ Could use edit button

Isn't virtue a segment of wisdom?

Are all virtues necessarily acquired thought 'learning'?

click to expand

There is no virtue or vice, those are segmentations created within the confines of human thinking and passed on through various means such as parents, schools, society etc. A child is a blank slate, it is barely aware of the self hence the surprise when looking at itself in the mirror.

A famous quote by Vladimir Nabokov, genius is an african who dreams up snow. This is basically knowledge through abstraction or intellect.

The soul is all things virtuous. It is love, patience, kindness, self control, humility and so on...
The body is all things evil. It is hate, lust, envy, greed, wrath and so on...
The mind is the merger.

You may refer to this as super ego, id, and ego, but I believe the "super ego" to be the soul because there is a divine influence there.

The soul is greater than the body because it is eternal and perfect.
The body is lesser than the soul because it is temporal, weak, it needs food, it bruises easy, scars, requires rest, ages, and is flawed.
The mind is the very choice between soul and body. The urge to help a stranger who you will never see again. Soul. The urge to hit someone who harmed you. Body. The urge to say something to someone who is down. Soul. The urge to steal from someone something that derives a momentary pleasure. Body.

As for knowledge as to how to play a C chord on the guitar or that 5+5=10, that belongs to the mind itself. It is in no way advantageous, in a survival sense, to the body to know such things and it is too earthly to concern one's soul, but because it belongs to the mind which connects the two, it is a tool that can express both.

Musically, we can express the motives of body and soul. An overwhelming amount of music is about what the Greeks would call "eros" or romantic love. Which is sexual desire and deep care wrapped into one. Body and soul. This leads to my theory that sex is sort of the separator between God and man. It is the one thing man does that God never has nor will ever do. It is the means by which we create the body, the body which is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent nor omniscient, -the limits of humanity that make us not God.

One may try to debunk all that was said above if they are a natural monist by pushing the Freudian id, ego, super ego and say that our "souls", as they may seem to a theist such as myself, are merely the differences in human personality. And that those personalities are a result of the genetics, that depending on the traits inherited, comprised your unique brain.

And to that I say, if you give any credit to astrology and the zodiac, which I assume you do because you are reading this on the dxp Leo board, you would have a belief that it is the positions of stars not proteins in your dna that impact your person. And if it is the stars, it would appear that there is more to this world than mere evolutionary chance playing a role in "you".

Posted by ARoarLikeThunder
The soul is all things virtuous. It is love, patience, kindness, self control, humility and so on...
The body is all things evil. It is hate, lust, envy, greed, wrath and so on...
The mind is the merger.

You may refer to this as super ego, id, and ego, but I believe the "super ego" to be the soul because there is a divine influence there.

The soul is greater than the body because it is eternal and perfect.
The body is lesser than the soul because it is temporal, weak, it needs food, it bruises easy, scars, requires rest, ages, and is flawed.
The mind is the very choice between soul and body. The urge to help a stranger who you will never see again. Soul. The urge to hit someone who harmed you. Body. The urge to say something to someone who is down. Soul. The urge to steal from someone something that derives a momentary pleasure. Body.

Intriguing...what do you refer to as the soul? Are you referring to the energy-matter conversion/reconversion process or something more profound? If we discuss the soul at a spiritual level, then I like to believe that it's the soul which is having a human experience rather than the physical self having a spiritual experience. Based on that hypothesis I put forward that the soul lacks any knowledge whatsoever, it's just energy.

@IC - You have to forgive me but just as of late I've been questioning my own belief I've held for a very long time. I may be becoming a material monist in believing that the world is only made up of physical manifestations and is not shared by mental ones. I think the mind is not anything more than the neuro synapses in the brain.. and I'm starting to think there are no souls in both an eternal and separate sense. I was reading an article that made me question my previous beliefs about such things...