A Story of Narcissism and Projection
This topic was created in the Miscellaneous forum by CreepyPants on Thursday, April 4, 2013 and has 26 replies.
an article...
"During a recent radio show I had the pleasure of interviewing Psychologist Ernie Vecchio who told the story of the Narcissus Myth. Later in the interview Ernie also shared the story of The Swan and The Scorpion. Many of us have heard this story or some version of it but it goes something like this.
There was a Swan at the edge of a river and a scorpion approached asking the swan if she would kindly give him a ride to the other side of the river on her back. The swan said "no, you are a scorpion, you will sting me and I will die." The scorpion assured the swan that he wouldn't do that, all he wanted was a ride to the other side and he promised she was safe with him. So the swan gave in and allowed the scorpion to climb upon her back. She swan to the other side and just before reaching the shore the scorpion stung her and jumped to safety. As the swan was sinking, slowly dying from the poisons she asked the scorpion why he broke his promise and stung her. The scorpion said "I'm a scorpion, that is what I do."
Ernie asked me why I believed that the swan allowed the scorpion on her back. I said it was because she was denying her instincts. He said it went deeper than that. So I asked Ernie to explain. He said the swan was projecting her swan like qualities upon the scorpion.
There is that word "projection" again. When we come to understand narcissism we find that narcissists are masters at projection. They take the dark qualities within themselves and project them onto those who love them. But we don't often think about our own projections. We just as easily project our goodness upon the narcissist in our lives and then we fall in love with the good qualities in ourselves projected upon the other. We see the narcissist (scorpion) as someone who is empathetic, caring, loving, concerned, compassionate and honest, because this is who we are. The narcissist gladly owns our projections and gives us his dirt. We get accused of being the very thing we eventually come to see in him.
...cont...
"During a recent radio show I had the pleasure of interviewing Psychologist Ernie Vecchio who told the story of the Narcissus Myth. Later in the interview Ernie also shared the story of The Swan and The Scorpion. Many of us have heard this story or some version of it but it goes something like this.
There was a Swan at the edge of a river and a scorpion approached asking the swan if she would kindly give him a ride to the other side of the river on her back. The swan said "no, you are a scorpion, you will sting me and I will die." The scorpion assured the swan that he wouldn't do that, all he wanted was a ride to the other side and he promised she was safe with him. So the swan gave in and allowed the scorpion to climb upon her back. She swan to the other side and just before reaching the shore the scorpion stung her and jumped to safety. As the swan was sinking, slowly dying from the poisons she asked the scorpion why he broke his promise and stung her. The scorpion said "I'm a scorpion, that is what I do."
Ernie asked me why I believed that the swan allowed the scorpion on her back. I said it was because she was denying her instincts. He said it went deeper than that. So I asked Ernie to explain. He said the swan was projecting her swan like qualities upon the scorpion.
There is that word "projection" again. When we come to understand narcissism we find that narcissists are masters at projection. They take the dark qualities within themselves and project them onto those who love them. But we don't often think about our own projections. We just as easily project our goodness upon the narcissist in our lives and then we fall in love with the good qualities in ourselves projected upon the other. We see the narcissist (scorpion) as someone who is empathetic, caring, loving, concerned, compassionate and honest, because this is who we are. The narcissist gladly owns our projections and gives us his dirt. We get accused of being the very thing we eventually come to see in him.
...cont...
I remember being accused of being selfish, greedy, uncommitted, angry, bi-polar and a host of other things that left me questioning whether or not this was really true. The most difficult thing was that he really seemed to believe it. He believed he was the pure one and I was the one poisoning his reality with my impurities. But once the veil was lifted and I could see through the narcissistic Web of Illusion I could see that who he accused me of being was never the truth about me.
One thing I notice with many of my clients is that they just can't believe the narcissist in thier lives was capable of doing the things he/she did. It is so out of character from the person they believed him or her to be. The ending of the relationship is almost always traumatic because the "swan" learns she has been deceived. She trusted the narcissist and believed in him and is shocked at his sudden change in behavior. She is shocked that he has no feeling about her sinking and drowning and just hops off as if nothing ever happened. She gave him her life! She believed him when he said he would never sting her. And now he laughs in the face of her pain and disbelief. "Stupid swan!" He says as he hops off! "I can always count on their goodness to get what I want."
If I were to imagine the rest of the story I would say the swan sunk down to the bottom of the river only to find the bodies of all those beautiful swans that came before her. She was not the first, nor would she be the last. Because it is the nature of the scorpion to sting.
Ernie said that the swan could clearly see that the scorpion was a scorpion. He wasn't wearing a disgiuse. In this myth he didn't pretend to be anything else, except he did make a promise that he would not hurt the swan.
...cont...
One thing I notice with many of my clients is that they just can't believe the narcissist in thier lives was capable of doing the things he/she did. It is so out of character from the person they believed him or her to be. The ending of the relationship is almost always traumatic because the "swan" learns she has been deceived. She trusted the narcissist and believed in him and is shocked at his sudden change in behavior. She is shocked that he has no feeling about her sinking and drowning and just hops off as if nothing ever happened. She gave him her life! She believed him when he said he would never sting her. And now he laughs in the face of her pain and disbelief. "Stupid swan!" He says as he hops off! "I can always count on their goodness to get what I want."
If I were to imagine the rest of the story I would say the swan sunk down to the bottom of the river only to find the bodies of all those beautiful swans that came before her. She was not the first, nor would she be the last. Because it is the nature of the scorpion to sting.
Ernie said that the swan could clearly see that the scorpion was a scorpion. He wasn't wearing a disgiuse. In this myth he didn't pretend to be anything else, except he did make a promise that he would not hurt the swan.
...cont...
The problem we often run into is that narcissists are not so blatantly obvious. When they arrive at the river bank asking for a ride, we see prince charming. Yet often within the first couple months or even the first couple dates we might see something very scorpion about the new love interest in our lives. This is where my suggestion that the swan was denying her own instincts was accurate. We may have a knowing but then not trust it. The deeper part is when we paint over our instincts with the projection of our swan like qualities. Instead of listening to the voice of intuition we see in the new love interest all the goodness that lies deep within our own being. We are caring creatures and would never hurt a fly, so how would it be possible that this amazing new person in our life could even conceive of hurting us?
I remember when my ex and I were breaking up he failed to deposit his portion of the mortgage into the bank account as he did for the prior two years. Now this was his house too, only I was the only one on the mortgage. He was on title and entitled to the house everybit as much as I was, only I was the one who was financially responsible. When we entered into the agreement that I would carry the mortgage, since I had the good credit at the time, I never conceived that he would be capable of putting me in financial jeopardy like he did. He never told me he wasn't going to deposit the money into the account. He just didn't do it! I found out when the bank notified me that they attempted to take out the money and it wasn't there so they were penalizing me with late charges and NSF fees.
In my mind I couldn't see how he could do such a thing. He had been very responsible for years, but now because our relationship is coming apart he suddenly becomes irresponsbile? It didn't make sense to me. I believed that even though we were having problems and breaking up that he still had goodness in him. He would still be considerate and still honor the agreements we made around the house. When I tried to approach him and talk to him about it he wouldn't talk to me. He closed the door in my face and didn't respond. I couldn't get an answer as to why he stung me. We still lived together! We still owned a house together. And he would not give me the satisfaction of knowing why he didn't pay his share of the mortgage or even if he had any intention of ever paying it again.
...cont...
I remember when my ex and I were breaking up he failed to deposit his portion of the mortgage into the bank account as he did for the prior two years. Now this was his house too, only I was the only one on the mortgage. He was on title and entitled to the house everybit as much as I was, only I was the one who was financially responsible. When we entered into the agreement that I would carry the mortgage, since I had the good credit at the time, I never conceived that he would be capable of putting me in financial jeopardy like he did. He never told me he wasn't going to deposit the money into the account. He just didn't do it! I found out when the bank notified me that they attempted to take out the money and it wasn't there so they were penalizing me with late charges and NSF fees.
In my mind I couldn't see how he could do such a thing. He had been very responsible for years, but now because our relationship is coming apart he suddenly becomes irresponsbile? It didn't make sense to me. I believed that even though we were having problems and breaking up that he still had goodness in him. He would still be considerate and still honor the agreements we made around the house. When I tried to approach him and talk to him about it he wouldn't talk to me. He closed the door in my face and didn't respond. I couldn't get an answer as to why he stung me. We still lived together! We still owned a house together. And he would not give me the satisfaction of knowing why he didn't pay his share of the mortgage or even if he had any intention of ever paying it again.
...cont...
Suddenly I found myself burdened, not only with the failure of the relationship but the sudden financial burden of having to be responsible for 100% of the bills why he was slamming doors in my face as if I was somehow the bad guy for seeking answers.
Up until this point I believed he was a sensible person. But the truth was I was a sensible person! I would have never done that to him! So I projected this quality onto him. In his narcissistic mind, he was punishing me for ending the relationship by withdrawing all support of the household he still lived in. He had no intention of moving out as he still believed the house was his. But he didn't care about MY credit or the trouble I found myself in at the bank. Even after I put him on my credit cards and helped to build his credit over the last several years, there was no appreciation. He was entitled to the help! It was not reciprocated by a concern for the very credit rating that helped him to get to where he wanted to go. No! Like th scorpion he stung me when my usefulness had been served.
Narcissistic people have no issue with breaking agreements! It is their nature to do so. It is their nature to exploit people for their own advantage. With our swan like nature it is difficult to comprehend such a reality. How could someone be so cold and heartless? How could someone suddenly care so little when he appeared to care in the beginning. Was it just so he could get what he wanted? A way to get to the other side of the river? And my life is so invaluable to him, so expendable! How could that be?
Perhaps it is enough to know that some realities we simply cannot comprehend. Could we even begin to conceive the inner workings of a serial killer? Could we understand the mind of a terrorist, a rapist, a con artist or thief? If we are someone who could never do such a thing, then no! We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes. We can't even begin to imagine what goes on inside of a mind that would intentionally set out to destroy another because we place too much value in a human life. We value human life and welfare over our own selfish needs. Although we know it is important to take care of ourselves and put ourselves first sometimes, if we live by the Golden rule we do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. We care about others as we care about ourselves. We don't want to see people get hurt!
...cont...
Up until this point I believed he was a sensible person. But the truth was I was a sensible person! I would have never done that to him! So I projected this quality onto him. In his narcissistic mind, he was punishing me for ending the relationship by withdrawing all support of the household he still lived in. He had no intention of moving out as he still believed the house was his. But he didn't care about MY credit or the trouble I found myself in at the bank. Even after I put him on my credit cards and helped to build his credit over the last several years, there was no appreciation. He was entitled to the help! It was not reciprocated by a concern for the very credit rating that helped him to get to where he wanted to go. No! Like th scorpion he stung me when my usefulness had been served.
Narcissistic people have no issue with breaking agreements! It is their nature to do so. It is their nature to exploit people for their own advantage. With our swan like nature it is difficult to comprehend such a reality. How could someone be so cold and heartless? How could someone suddenly care so little when he appeared to care in the beginning. Was it just so he could get what he wanted? A way to get to the other side of the river? And my life is so invaluable to him, so expendable! How could that be?
Perhaps it is enough to know that some realities we simply cannot comprehend. Could we even begin to conceive the inner workings of a serial killer? Could we understand the mind of a terrorist, a rapist, a con artist or thief? If we are someone who could never do such a thing, then no! We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes. We can't even begin to imagine what goes on inside of a mind that would intentionally set out to destroy another because we place too much value in a human life. We value human life and welfare over our own selfish needs. Although we know it is important to take care of ourselves and put ourselves first sometimes, if we live by the Golden rule we do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. We care about others as we care about ourselves. We don't want to see people get hurt!
...cont...
If we come to a strong understanding that there are scorpions in the world and they do sting, we can perhaps be more aware and trust our instincts more when something just doesn't feel right. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it probably is one. So projecting our beautiful swans upon the ugly duckling does not make it a swan. It is still a duck! And in the end, next to that duck we will feel like the ugly duckling instead of recognizing the beautiful swans that we are.
you guys are missing the point.
narcissism isn't just undue self love. it's also taking advantage of others, reacting with actions of rage and contempt and putting effort to belittle the standing of others.
the duck was an allegory.
the point is not to be completely distrustful, but to be vigilant and see people for who they are and not to project yourself into every being you come across or you miss knowing them.
just like in the book Life of Pi there's a quote that deals with the same idea...
"Animals do not think like we do. People who forget that get themselves killed. That tiger ??_ is not your friend. When you look into his eyes you are seeing your own emotions reflected back at you. Nothing else!"
...same principle.
narcissism isn't just undue self love. it's also taking advantage of others, reacting with actions of rage and contempt and putting effort to belittle the standing of others.
the duck was an allegory.
the point is not to be completely distrustful, but to be vigilant and see people for who they are and not to project yourself into every being you come across or you miss knowing them.
just like in the book Life of Pi there's a quote that deals with the same idea...
"Animals do not think like we do. People who forget that get themselves killed. That tiger ??_ is not your friend. When you look into his eyes you are seeing your own emotions reflected back at you. Nothing else!"
...same principle.
half the ppl on this board half the ppl in life, go to therapy! Oh wait, they never will cause they are "too good" for it 
the population is now defected!
the population is now defected!
those animals get tamed by carefully impressing a heirarchy and pecking order, not because the animal suddenly said to themselves "this bro is cool peeps. i'll have a salad for lunch"
and most ppl have some power of perception. projection is something that blinds the projector. it's not a smoke screen for others. projection, for example, would be me fooling myself. or you fooling yourself. if i projected onto you, it would be me fooling myself to think you embodied some quality of mine that you don't. nothing to do with what you are trying to "project" to me
i hope that makes sense.
and most ppl have some power of perception. projection is something that blinds the projector. it's not a smoke screen for others. projection, for example, would be me fooling myself. or you fooling yourself. if i projected onto you, it would be me fooling myself to think you embodied some quality of mine that you don't. nothing to do with what you are trying to "project" to me
i hope that makes sense.
Posted by tizianiPosted by Purrrr
This is why some of the kindest, sweetest people are often very gullible and fucked over by lots of people. They're seeing themselves instead of the scoundrels.
Isn't that what a narcissist does?click to expand
a narcissist may only want to see themselves, but truly themselves. they dont project the good things that they feel sets them apart because that's what elevates them above others. if anything, they completely fail to recognize the emotions or consider the feelings of others.
narcissistic personality disorder is a goddamn nightmare when you deal with someone who has it. no thanks!
Posted by xygeneration
So projection= expectation
yea that's a good way of looking at it.
they are really similarly aligned, but come from different places and are fueled by different agendas.
projection may entail some level of failure to recognize another's emotions or feelings... because you've imposed your own onto that person either in hope, paranoia, or expectation i suppose.
narcissism also entails the same failure, but it has little to do with expectations of that person and more to do with the expectations the narcissist has of themselves. the other person is kind of disregarded as a sentient being.
projection may entail some level of failure to recognize another's emotions or feelings... because you've imposed your own onto that person either in hope, paranoia, or expectation i suppose.
narcissism also entails the same failure, but it has little to do with expectations of that person and more to do with the expectations the narcissist has of themselves. the other person is kind of disregarded as a sentient being.
imo, projection is an easy thing to do without realizing you've done it.
it's basically an assumption of someone else's character. we've all grown up projecting as lil kids. it's how we learned. every person has done it to varying degrees.
i do it ALL the time. I am very hopeful of other people. "hopeful" being the way i phrase my projection. but essentially they are both the same.
it's basically an assumption of someone else's character. we've all grown up projecting as lil kids. it's how we learned. every person has done it to varying degrees.
i do it ALL the time. I am very hopeful of other people. "hopeful" being the way i phrase my projection. but essentially they are both the same.
Posted by xdimplez
I liked this
I get it, but I feel as if it comes off as
" don't trust anybody, they are all fucking assholes who will screw you"
So is there no hope for the goodness of mankind?
remember the writer of the article is a woman scorned. her ex really screwed her over so she's layed the msg on pretty thick.i dont think the swan thinks it's a blessing to the scorpion. the swans error in projection was masking what "she" knew deep down his character was with her own character. she projected her goodness onto him not out of vanity, but out of ... her ... own ... kindness. she wanted to believe the scorpion was also kind.
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by CreepyPants
i dont think the swan thinks it's a blessing to the scorpion. the swans error in projection was masking what "she" knew deep down his character was with her own character. she projected her goodness onto him not out of vanity, but out of ... her ... own ... kindness. she wanted to believe the scorpion was also kind.
She projected out of her own blind naivety and trust as well.click to expand
yes.
tiz possessing vs practicing is just getting into semantics. we could swap em all out and the story will still bring the same msg and it will still hold the same truths.
she practiced kindness/goodness and projected the parts of her character that practice kindness/goodness onto the scorpion.
Posted by ninjafish
Most people have good in them. I don't think that looking for that good should always be dismissed as 'projecting'
very true
but those who project are kind of being lazy and not searching for it's real existence in another person. they're giving another person credit, unearned nor proven and it could blow up in their face.
they could also be right out of dumb luck.
Posted by feb16aquaPosted by CreepyPants
very true
but those who project are kind of being lazy and not searching for it's real existence in another person. they're giving another person credit, unearned nor proven and it could blow up in their face.
they could also be right out of dumb luck.
I don't think it's just laziness. Could also be a blind acceptance or self-rationalizing coping mechanism?click to expand
i was lazy and just said "lazy"
loltotally agree
Posted by PurrrrPosted by CreepyPantsPosted by ninjafish
Most people have good in them. I don't think that looking for that good should always be dismissed as 'projecting'
very true
but those who project are kind of being lazy and not searching for it's real existence in another person. they're giving another person credit, unearned nor proven and it could blow up in their face.
they could also be right out of dumb luck.
I think there's often a ton of denial involved. No one wants to believe that they've been seriously duped by someone they love.click to expand
ugh... heck yea.
why you're welcome feb! and everyone!
with all the relationship issues floating around in threads on dxp, i thought this was a really good msg for those struggling. reeaaally good.
it's not easy accepting what's really in front of you when your very strong feelings are involved. feelings cloud like a mofo.
with all the relationship issues floating around in threads on dxp, i thought this was a really good msg for those struggling. reeaaally good.
it's not easy accepting what's really in front of you when your very strong feelings are involved. feelings cloud like a mofo.
^^^ yea. it is sad. it's going from one extreme coping mechanism to another.
Posted by ninjafishPosted by feb16aqua
That's one of the things I like about being in a relationship with someone, they point out your flaws because they know you on an intimate level. You can really grow that way.
Yeah, exactly. It's a lot of work but deeply enriching if you do it.click to expand
this is a nice perspective.
o.O that wasn't my story.
BUT it is still a good message that I take to heart Everyone should. Keeping mind of how we project onto others could save a lot of trouble. And you make great points and speak very wisely
BUT it is still a good message that I take to heart
Everyone should. Keeping mind of how we project onto others could save a lot of trouble. And you make great points and speak very wiselyPosted by sandPosted by Sag89
half the ppl on this board half the ppl in life, go to therapy! Oh wait, they never will cause they are "too good" for it
the population is now defected!
i am so narcissistic i even self diagnose.
http://www.albernstein.com/id59.htm
astro is really a veiled form of therapy for me.click to expand
Don't have kids thanks!
^^^^ lmao. srs
actually that also reminds me... lately it seems like ppl are becoming more and more ego-centric. in the last couple decades...
truly every man for himself. we're more and more obsessed with our own life path that general mentality is steering away from compromising and building a life with another partner.
to the point that there's a rise in number of singles and a decline marriages.
i believe
i read another article about that a couple months ago with supporting figures... i'll have to search for it.
actually that also reminds me... lately it seems like ppl are becoming more and more ego-centric. in the last couple decades...
truly every man for himself. we're more and more obsessed with our own life path that general mentality is steering away from compromising and building a life with another partner.
to the point that there's a rise in number of singles and a decline marriages.
i believe
i read another article about that a couple months ago with supporting figures... i'll have to search for it.
Posted by CreepyPants
^^^^ lmao. srs
actually that also reminds me... lately it seems like ppl are becoming more and more ego-centric. in the last couple decades...
truly every man for himself. we're more and more obsessed with our own life path that general mentality is steering away from compromising and building a life with another partner.
to the point that there's a rise in number of singles and a decline marriages.
i believe
i read another article about that a couple months ago with supporting figures... i'll have to search for it.
So so true. And so so sad.
Nice deductions made in the thread, all in all a beautiful read - food for thought stuff.
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