Duck Dynasty Debate

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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

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Should or shouldn't A&E have banned Phil Robertson after making remarks about gays and sin.

Link here: http://tv.yahoo.com/blogs/tv-news/-duck-dynasty--drama--controversy-continues-to-build-over-phil-robertson-s-homosexuality-remarks-180934306.html<BR>
I normally entirely disagree with people commenting on sexuality, but I'm not quite sure if the disagreement is based on a religious belief. I would have a different opinion if Phil volunteered his thoughts, but because it was done during an interview I think that changes things.

Thoughts?
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gemini64
@gemini64
15 Years1,000+ Posts

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Posted by Prince_Pisces
Yeah, apparently this is a big deal LOL! Last time I checked, they were just a bunch of dirty rednecks that lived out in the swamp. Not sure why anyones listening to them in the first place.



Because first of all, there is a thing in the US Constitution called the 1st amendment. If you are a US citizen, you have every right to express your opinion, whether you are a Christian, an Atheist, Straight or Gay, Male or Female.

Secondly, this country was founded upon Christian and Judeo principles. If you don't like it, you can always move to a more tolerant society as Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan or even Russia where gays are killed simply for being gay.

Thirdly, The Robertsons are not only good people, they built an empire on hard work, innovation and principle. I realize you don't share in their core values. That's fine. It's your choice.

Years ago, they removed God from the public educational system. When I say they removed God, I don't mean religion. I mean they gutted the system of teaching core values and moral accountability. Since then, we have seen how our culture has been debased.

Although everyone is afforded freedom of speech, in the past 15 years or so, there has been a media onslaught to attack anyone who espouses Christians values in this country. You may not believe this. That's fine. There are many examples. There is a double standard in this country.
Phil Robertson is suspended from his family show for only stating his personal beliefs, yet libs like John Podesta, a former Clinton aid, can refer to Conservatives as "Jonestown Cult", he gets a free pass. Christians are ridiculed on TV, in the movies, and in the press. It's allowed because of those with an agenda also control the majority of those venues.

Yet, how dare ONE person state his personal beliefs based on the Bible, and he should be destroyed. Where's the "TOLERANCE"? Oh yea, that's only afforded to NON Christians. It's about standing up for freedom of speech. When you allow a small percentage in the country to dictate what you can express, that is NOT freedom of speech. That is censorship. And the reality is that someone as you who doesn't understand the true message being sent in all of this, will be one of the first to cower when your freedom of speech is threatened.

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Herself
@Herself
12 Years

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Posted by gemini64
Posted by Prince_Pisces
Yeah, apparently this is a big deal LOL! Last time I checked, they were just a bunch of dirty rednecks that lived out in the swamp. Not sure why anyones listening to them in the first place.
click to expand




Because first of all, there is a thing in the US Constitution called the 1st amendment. If you are a US citizen, you have every right to express your opinion, whether you are a Christian, an Atheist, Straight or Gay, Male or Female.

Secondly, this country was founded upon Christian and Judeo principles. If you don't like it, you can always move to a more tolerant society as Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan or even Russia where gays are killed simply for being gay.

Thirdly, The Robertsons are not only good people, they built an empire on hard work, innovation and principle. I realize you don't share in their core values. That's fine. It's your choice.

Years ago, they removed God from the public educational system. When I say they removed God, I don't mean religion. I mean they gutted the system of teaching core values and moral accountability. Since then, we have seen how our culture has been debased.

Although everyone is afforded freedom of speech, in the past 15 years or so, there has been a media onslaught to attack anyone who espouses Christians values in this country. You may not believe this. That's fine. There are many examples. There is a double standard in this country.
Phil Robertson is suspended from his family show for only stating his personal beliefs, yet libs like John Podesta, a former Clinton aid, can refer to Conservatives as "Jonestown Cult", he gets a free pass. Christians are ridiculed on TV, in the movies, and in the press. It's allowed because of those with an agenda also control the majority of those venues.

Yet, how dare ONE person state his personal beliefs based on the Bible, and he should be destroyed. Where's the "TOLERANCE"? Oh yea, that's only afforded to NON Christians. It's about standing up for freedom of speech. When you allow a small percentage in the country to dictate what you can express, that is NOT freedom of speech. That is censorship. And the reality is that someone as you who doesn't understand the true message being sent in all of this, will be one of the first to cower when your freedom of speech is
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Saying that employers have every right to ban/fire people for their speech effectively removes the first amendment. The vast majority of Americans are employed, so should every employed citizen be subject to this same treatment? IE, some cashier getting fired from Walmart because of some personal opinions she posted on Facebook? Really? Let's just scrap the first amendment if that's the case.
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Just to be clear, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not christian and have no ill feelings towards gay folks. Gay marriage? No problem from my POV.

This *IS* a point of interest to me because I don't think Phil actually maligned the gay community. His opinions were brought forth from a question, and they are religiously based. To me, those elements are crux. That said, if some christian person ran around talking about gays going to hell, I would not even be considering this.
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Posted by seraph
I'll reply to this at length once my headache is gone. Might be tomorrow sometime.

But in the meantime, the answer couldn't be simpler: if the network does nothing, they condone homophobia. If they do something, they send a message that's it's unacceptable.

The 1st Amendment is noble in its intent, but absolutely abysmal (too often to ignore) in its execution and invocation. It is regularly trotted out as a means to justify bigotry under the "freedom of expression" war-cry, and people are led to assume that it gives them a license to say whatever the hell they want without repercussion.

The rigidity of Constitutional Amendments (particualry the 1st), means that it is extremely difficult to devise just and reasonable exceptions to them, or at least methods of remedy that don't run afoul of it somehow. But they all do, unfortunately. This is the reason your Supreme Court can't bring itself to catch up with other modern democracies in the area of Hate Speech laws.

Simply put, your 1st Amendment rights don't give you a license to abuse them. Good on the network for doing the right thing. And from a purely pragmatic point of view, it's their show to begin with and they can determine the content and message as they please.



I 100% agree with you, but what happens when a person says: "based on the bible, homosexual is immoral" vs "them damn gays are gonna swim in a lake of fire!"

Shouldn't there be a distinction made here?
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by Quest4Water
Saying that employers have every right to ban/fire people for their speech effectively removes the first amendment. The vast majority of Americans are employed, so should every employed citizen be subject to this same treatment? IE, some cashier getting fired from Walmart because of some personal opinions she posted on Facebook? Really? Let's just scrap the first amendment if that's the case.



If you've signed any document as a condition of your employment that states you are to act/speak/represent your employer in a manner consistent with the employers values, and you violate that agreement, then yes.

Don't like it? Don't sign away your right to free speech in exchange for money.
click to expand




But wouldn't it be simpler and more cost-effective for the employer to state that 'John' does not represent our company's views instead of responding to an emotional back lash?
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Posted by Rabbit
It's a harsh reality...but having an employee with controversial views is an extreme liability these days for some companies. Social media has given the average joe the ability to turn molehills into mountains.



But again, and this is to you and Seraph, how do you define which is more important, someone's sexuality vs someone's religious tenets. They are both highly personal and very individual-often volatile in said defense. Indeed, it can and will make mountains of molehills but should that cost peoples their careers or worse?
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

Comments: 0 · Posts: 407 · Topics: 16
Posted by seraph
Posted by Quest4Water


But again, and this is to you and Seraph, how do you define which is more important, someone's sexuality vs someone's religious tenets. They are both highly personal and very individual-often volatile in said defense. Indeed, it can and will make mountains of molehills but should that cost peoples their careers or worse?



If religious tenets teach and promote hate, then they fall under the "abuse" category (and are thus open to remedies, accordingly) and need to be used with greater care and mindfulness.
click to expand




I guess what I'm asking, "the bible says homosexuality is immoral" vs "them damn gays will make a fire swim!" I believe the latter statement is hate, and the former is expressing a belief. I think Phil's statement was more along the lines of the former. It's what makes this interesting to me.
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Quest4Water
@Quest4Water
12 Years

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Posted by size zero superhero
Posted by Quest4Water
Posted by Rabbit
It's a harsh reality...but having an employee with controversial views is an extreme liability these days for some companies. Social media has given the average joe the ability to turn molehills into mountains.



But again, and this is to you and Seraph, how do you define which is more important, someone's sexuality vs someone's religious tenets. They are both highly personal and very individual-often volatile in said defense. Indeed, it can and will make mountains of molehills but should that cost peoples their careers or worse?



Sexual preferences are not consciously predetermined, whereas religion & which particular components of faith are emphasized is 100% choice.
Then, there's the issue of how one chooses to incorporate these beliefs--he's free to think this way & apply these standards to his personal life--but that's not enough.
He had to condemn gay people, and wonder out loud, how "a man's anus could take the place of vagina", going on to explain that he feels God & Jesus specifically banned such deviance.
click to expand




I agree with your point that he went too far, but I don't think it was nearly as extreme as some statements we've all read/heard. I daresay that was more jest than hate. I disagree on the predetermined point though, because as far as I know, homosexuality hasn't been explained/proven, empirically yet. To me, it makes sense that some folks may be gay naturally, but that personal thought is not really irrelevant.
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krysrenee7
@krysrenee7
17 Years5,000+ Posts

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Should he have been banned? YES. He violated the morality clause in his contract. Anybody who violates that clause voids out their contract. These contracts are legally binding. He shouldn't get any special treatment.

This isn't about his freedom of speech. Freedom of speech may keep you OUT of jail but it doesn't keep you IN your contracts.

This man had full knowledge of that clause in his contract, signed it & violated it anyway. He's allowed to have his own opinions on things but when the network warned him about publicly sharing potentially offensive views, he signed a contract swearing that he wouldn't violate its conditions, but did anyway.

What are we really fighting for?! For people to be able to still get benefits even though they've violated a contract they signed?! That'll never happen! This argument is plain silly. This guy is not above the law. He doesn't deserve special treatment.

These high profile celebrities are briefed on these things & their consequences from the beginning. No excuses.

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krysrenee7
@krysrenee7
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This is absolutely silly! He was briefed on the morality clause in his contract. He violated that morality contract. Millions of people are offended & threatening to boycott the network. Next step: The contract is now void! When people violate morality clauses in their contracts, they are not subject to criminal punishment b/c of the free speech amendment, but legally it is permissible for the contract holder to terminate all benefits. Come on guys this isn't rocket science!
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LetltB
@LetltB
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With that said.....How many of you followed ALL of the links to the exact OPINION of this man? (I see a couple have)

Hey Seraph..You calling this man a Homophobe makes you a bigot & prejudiced!! You clearly did not read that this is HIS opinion, and that opinion is from his religious belief and personal preference. This would group and classify you with the homophobes for knocking this man down for his right to religion, his religious beliefs and right to freedom of speech/opinion.

These are the comments he made, which INCLUDED all sexual behavior!!!!! (but you didn't read, as always you just assumed)

"A lot can happen in 24 hours. Exhibit A: On Wednesday, GQ released some rather blunt remarks Phil Robertson made on the topic of homosexuality. When asked about his definition of sin, the reality star said, "Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there — bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men."

Less than two hours later, as news of these remarks spread like wildfire, prompting the "Duck Dynasty" star to clarify his statements.
"I myself am a product of the '60s; I centered my life around sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll until I hit rock bottom and accepted Jesus as my Savior," he said in a statement issued by A&E on Wednesday. "My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together. However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty, and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other."

"Don't be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers — they won't inherit the kingdom of God," he warned. "Don't deceive yourself. It's not right."

What's more, according to him, it's basically incomprehensible. "It seems to me, a vagina — as a man — would be more desirable than a man's anus," he explained. "That's just me. I'm just thinking, 'There's more there! She's got more to offer.' I mean, come on, dudes! You know what I'm saying? But hey, sin: It's not logical, my man. It's just not logical."
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LetltB
@LetltB
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Not ONCE did this man knock anyone, not ONCE did he come across anywhere near a homophobe. He simply stated what his beliefs and opinions are.

Those that knock this man IN MY OPINION are fucking bigots and prejudiced against religion, and makes you no better than the homophobes.

People like you are no better than the instigating media. Freedom of Speech is a RIGHT. Get that through your thick skulls.
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capgirl69
@capgirl69
12 Years1,000+ PostsCapricorn

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He also said this in the same article:

"As far as Phil is concerned, he was literally born again. Old Phil—the guy with the booze and the pills—died a long time ago, and New Phil sees no need to apologize for him: —We never, ever judge someone on who??s going to heaven, hell. That's the Almighty??s job. We just love ??em, give ??em the good news about Jesus—whether they??re homosexuals, drunks, terrorists. We let God sort ??em out later, you see what I'm saying—



Read More http://www.gq.com/entertainment/television/201401/duck-dynasty-phil-robertson#ixzz2o1GT3QNq<BR>
I don't agree with his statements but I find it odd that he was suspended because-
Anyone who has ever watched even one episode of this show will tell you that the Robertsons are a very conservative Christian family, and Phil, in particular has a lot of ideas and makes comments that would be considered outrageous by a lot of liberal people. I think that's part of the appeal , though, the fact that they are who they are and they make no apologies for it.
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LetltB
@LetltB
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Posted by Rabbit
My view is this...I personally don't give two shits about his beliefs. They're his, not mine and he's entitled to them.

But A&E had the right as a private entity to suspend him if he violated terms of his contract by making those remarks in the interview.

That's just the way things work these days especially with media hyper saturation.



Understood and you are correct. A contract is legal and binding.

However the assholes here that call him a homophobe based off of why he got fired are completely OUT OF LINE.
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capgirl69
@capgirl69
12 Years1,000+ PostsCapricorn

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Posted by Rabbit
My view is this...I personally don't give two shits about his beliefs. They're his, not mine and he's entitled to them.

But A&E had the right as a private entity to suspend him if he violated terms of his contract by making those remarks in the interview.

That's just the way things work these days especially with media hyper saturation.



Totally agree.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me for them to punish the guy for being who he is; who is exactly the same person you see on the show, and who is making your network a ton of money. In the article, Phil does say that he is often censored in the show- many of his comments don't make the cut. That is because they are outrageous by a lot of people's standards.

A&E, GQ, and everyone in America knew before this article (or could guess) what his viewpoint would be on this topic, based on the fact that he is a conservative Christian, and based on remarks that he makes on a daily basis, on and off the show.

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LetltB
@LetltB
12 Years5,000+ Posts

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Posted by seraph


Incorrect. If he signed a morality clause then he has no legal recourse under the First Amendment. The network owns him in his capacity as talent/actor and can dismiss him based on his violating what he agreed to not violate.

No one violated his right to free speech. He exercised it. And A&E exercised their rights as an employer.

Simple simple, folks.




Oh no you don't *princess*...don't spin this to the legal contract. You outright called him a homophobe because you didn't READ. Now you are doing what you do best, and detracting..AGAIN.

Posted by seraph

But in the meantime, the answer couldn't be simpler: if the network does nothing, they condone homophobia.
click to expand




THIS IS A NO SPIN ZONE
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LetltB
@LetltB
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Posted by seraph

And yes, he *is* a homophobe, and apparently the network thinks so, too.




WRONG AGAIN *PRINCESS*

ho??mo??pho??bi??a (hm-fb-)
n.
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

ho??mo??phobe
/??ho?_m—?fo?_b/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-fohb] Show IPA
noun
a person who fears or hates homosexuals and homosexuality.

Your Canadian dictionary must be different eh? This man spoke of no fear, in fact he should be commended for having the courage to share HIS feelings and opinions. His behavior was not homophobe, and in fact he says he LOVES all mankind. How many more holes you want shot up into your SPIN Seraph?
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LetltB
@LetltB
12 Years5,000+ Posts

Comments: 1 · Posts: 9186 · Topics: 179
Posted by seraph

Ignorance under the mantle of religion is no excuse. Piggybacking bigotry on religion is a common tactic. And it's gratifying to see that there are at least *some* mechanisms out there (in this case a sense of moral responsibility on the part of a network) that can address this.




So I call you out on the definition of "HOMOPHOBE", and you want to SPIN it to religion now.😢

"Piggybacking bigotry on religion" would be the weak liberal's trying be the THOUGHT POLICE. I'd bet my house if this guy took this to court he'd WIN HANDS DOWN..just like Ms. Deen did.

The Constitution is the shot gun for those who try to infiltrate it. You just remember that.😉

How's your liberal Mayor doing over there? I saw the latest on that circus you live in, and it doesn't surprise me that the influence of this jackass overflows onto it's residents and the shit you spew in dxp smh:
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ScorpioFish
@ScorpioFish
14 Years1,000+ PostsPisces

Comments: 5 · Posts: 4180 · Topics: 103
Posted by Prince_Pisces
Yeah, apparently this is a big deal LOL! Last time I checked, they were just a bunch of dirty rednecks that lived out in the swamp. Not sure why anyones listening to them in the first place.



It's always humorous to see the double-standards of homosexuals on full display.

They can speak in condescending ways and call others names such as "rednecks."

But if one calls them "faggots," well...

That's simply not allowed, now is it?

Homosexuals tend to consistently be hypocrites.
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ScorpioFish
@ScorpioFish
14 Years1,000+ PostsPisces

Comments: 5 · Posts: 4180 · Topics: 103
Posted by seraph
Posted by LetltB
Posted by seraph

And yes, he *is* a homophobe, and apparently the network thinks so, too.




WRONG AGAIN *PRINCESS*

ho??mo??pho??bi??a (hm-fb-)
n.
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

ho??mo??phobe
/??ho?_m—?fo?_b/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-fohb] Show IPA
noun
a person who fears or hates homosexuals and homosexuality.

Your Canadian dictionary must be different eh? This man spoke of no fear, in fact he should be commended for having the courage to share HIS feelings and opinions. His behavior was not homophobe, and in fact he says he LOVES all mankind. How many more holes you want shot up into your SPIN Seraph?



Ignorance under the mantle of religion is no excuse. Piggybacking bigotry on religion is a common tactic. And it's gratifying to see that there are at least *some* mechanisms out there (in this case a sense of moral responsibility on the part of a network) that can address this.
click to expand




Dickbreath,

It's not a fear, you ignorant asshole.

Fear is when you see a spider, and run the other direction.

Fear is when you hear gunfire, and run the other direction.

There is no such thing as "fear of homosexuals."

Normal people who don't like homosexuals and their agenda tend to do so for variety of justifiable reasons.

1.) The homosexual disease ratio is enormous, and certainly more prevalent than normal people. I have cited CDC data multiple times on this website indicating the truth about it.

2.) Homosexuality is a mental illness that is on par with schizophrenia and kleptomania. Whether or not these people are born mentally dysfunctional or become that way based on environment, does not matter. There is indeed something very wrong with them, and it's our right to speak up about it.

3.) Homosexuality is killing queers off left and right. Even as I type this, the homo men in California are getting something at random from some new unknown disease that scientists cannot even diagnose yet.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/09/us-californian-doctor-diagnoses-gay-patient-with-chronic-homosexual-disease/<BR>

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