NotYourAverageAquarius
@NotYourAverageAquarius
13 Years5,000+ PostsAquarius
Comments: 22 · Posts: 6178 · Topics: 30
DXP Survivor 2014 Part I (Page 3)
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Posted by SteveWPosted by GetMistedPosted by SteveWPosted by GetMistedPosted by aquasnoz
Fortunately we do not need to abide to your request but the longer you want to keep at this single instance is another post wasted at strengthening your post. But I do like being a broken record player: UDHR strengthens our rights as much as yours - Human rights aren't selective to your cause. The points are well and listed GetMisted, I suggest you GetStarted.
NYAA has discredited the UDHR. That does not stregthen your arguement.
Find me another doctrine that shows your 5 rights to be basic human rights.
Until then, what makes them human rights? Because you say they are?
I have the basic human right to kill whomever I please Why? Because I said I do, even though I have no doctrine to support it. Cheeky
The US Constitution Bill of Rights on Freedom of Thought (speech) and to peaceably assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Document for the right to be free from slavery: The Emancipation Proclamation. The right to an education is under the 14th amendment of the US Constitution. The right to a free will is our greatest strength and potential: the freedom of choice. But if you want a document for that as well: The Ayn Rand Institute and her book "Atlas Shrugged".
So you want to use the US Bill of rights as the foundation of your human rights?
For the 3 rights that I covered under the US Constitution: sure, why not?click to expand
She/he is just trying to get you tangled in semantics. You don't need that as a basis for anything according to the parameters of the debate. And actually, you answered the request she posed.
He/She is likely to quote this and continue debating about what is said rather then sticking to the rights themselves.
Posted by GetMisted
My point stands.
Why is it a right? What makes it a right? Is it a right because you say it is?
I ask because you claim that the rights we have chosen are mere priviledges. If so, why?
That is why I ask the question.
You arguement, NYAA is based on that. And that is why you need to define what a right is.
Why are mine priviledges that can be taken away, and yours rights that can't.
You can't answer that without properly defining "Right".
I already did several times.
How are we doing? I'm not on here a lot folks, I will read up later. Do you want me off the team?
No, you are on the team. Just read the whole thread before replying 🙂
Posted by Damnata
No, you are on the team. Just read the whole thread before replying 🙂
Thank you, I love my teammates, I will read everything later....
Yeah Steve I am on a total different timezone here...will vampire out tonight it's already 11 pm here.
Posted by GetMisted
"Does that mean for the remainder of 49,934 years human beings should not have had Rights because no one drafted a piece of paper with a title "THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS"?"
You still have defined what. "Right" is. What makes it a right?
Do you have the right to rob a bank? I suppose you do, with free will and all. But by exercising your right to free will, you have the rest of your rights stripped once incarcerated. And none of this "i have free will in prision" crap.
If you want to go outside, does free will allow you to do so? No. So does that make free will a priviledge now?
If you didn't have free will in prison people wouldn't be shanked. People would trade cigarettes or have gay sex or rape men in prison... yada yada yada.
Posted by GetMisted
Laws protect our rights, until you break the law. Once proven guilty, rights are lost.
I understand that Goat said that laws don't have to be a factor, but by exercising certain rights, you break certain laws. It's just how it is.
So in order to place importance on rights, they need to be defined and put into perspective with said laws. I will do so when I get off work.
No needs a law to think.
It required a human to have freedom of thought to be able to construct the law in the first place.
LAWS are limited things that only have power because you give them weight.
Just like any authority or government has power only because we the people grant it to them.
period.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by StillWater
Are you trying to say that Human Rights exist because they have been documented in doctrines such as the UDHR?
Since, NYAA didn't agree with parts of the UDHR, we need other doctrines in order to state that our Human Rights are actual Rights?
Since you are using the UDHR as your source to state your list of Human Rights are actual Rights, does that mean previous to the UDHR Humans did not have Rights and Freedoms?
You do realize UDHR was developed ONLY 66 years ago. That is ONLY 0.132% of the existence of human kind (by the way I'm being generous with the numbers and only using the amount of years homo sapiens have been exhibiting the modern human behavior. In actuality, homo sapiens were anatomically modern for approximately 200,000 years which drops the percentage to 0.00033.)
Does that mean for the remainder of 49,934 years human beings should not have had Rights because no one drafted a piece of paper with a title "THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS"?
I'm am simply asking "what is a right?"
NYAA claims that our right are priviledges. Why are they priviledges and not rights? How dense can you be?click to expand
I already posted why.
e I plainly define LIBERTY = FREEDOM =_=
ON PAGE 9
Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Why would I have to define a term that your team is supposed to define supposedly?
Why am I having to do your teams work?
Furthermore, its not your teams job to define words to their liking that are already defined in the English language.
How can I be shooting ahead when I'm merely responding to what was claimed by your team in plain English.
I don't need your team to define a word for me that is common knowledge.
Liberty is a general term for freedom.
^^^^
Here's where I define Rights ~_~
ON PAGE 12
Posted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by StoicGoat
I have received a PM requesting clarification. There is no need to raise any issue pertaining to law in the course of this debate. The teams are welcome to do so if they feel it will aid their respective causes, but I assure you, the citing of legal precedents and the like is completely unnecessary.
They are not laws. They are Rights. We use laws to uphold our rights.
Laws Uphold privileges..
Rights however cannot be taken from you or me and neither can they be given... they simply are.click to expand
need to be rude ^.^
Posted by GetMisted
How dense can you be?
I posted it here on page 7
Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius
And since you chose to quote the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" I find other parts of their language a conundrum as well.
For instance... the use of the word inalienable.
They say that all the rights they list are in fact "inalienable" yet the definition of inalienable would say different.
inalienable-Unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.
Which if adjective inalienable did in fact apply to all the rights listed it would make the entire declaration of human rights mute. Anyways, the contradiction is plenty of what they say are inalienable rights are actually just privileges you enjoy that are now protected by law but not necessarily anything you could say you had universally that couldn't be given or taken away from you.
And relooking at Dawny Dryer sheet list
The Downy Dryer Sheets
Liberty - to general to say whether it could or could not be inalienable
Life - life can always be taken.
Freedom from torture - You can't stop people from torturing you if they wanted to.
To be considered innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial - I'm pretty sure the Patriot act proves my point rather nicely.
Freedom from discrimination - You can't stop people from discriminating you because you yourself cannot control human beings. Control of human beings is not an inalienable right and therefore neither is freedom from discrimination.
click to expand
IF YOURS WERE A RIGHT THEN NO ONE WOULD HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE IT FROM YOU...
So now I ask you... ARE YOU THAT DENSE ^.^? LOOOOOOOOOOL
Posted by GetMisted
Shanking and gay sex? Wut?
Refer to my statement.
If you have free will, you can go outside and play with tour friends whenever you please. Is that true?
Free will does not mean I am Super Man.... someone can also kill you and take away your free will as well but it doesn't matter because while your alive you ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE. Choice is at the core of Free Will. We are faced with using our Free Will everyday.
Posted by GetMisted
So again, how is free will not a priviledge?click to expand
I don't need a law to enforce my ability to make choices. My entire life I do what I will to do with the tools and environment I find myself in. And I will continue to do so till the day I die.
Posted by GetMisted
The law can take away you ability to choose. Pretty simple.
People break the law everyday.
A jail cell does not remove free will.... if that were true I would cease to make choices of my own upon being put in jail.
Posted by GetMisted
"Ayn Rand claimed the existence of free will and had proven it. Read "Atlas Shrugged": it is a very good book and recommended."
You're not the only one to recommend this. It's on my reading list 🙂
Add me to the list of those recommending it. Make an effort to do so without any preconceived notions and it will be eye opening.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by GetMisted
The law can take away you ability to choose. Pretty simple.
People break the law everyday.
A jail cell does not remove free will.... if that were true I would cease to make choices of my own upon being put in jail.
Can you choose to go outside when you have the desire?
click to expand
People have exerted free will and escaped prison several times.
I am unable to quote for some reason...
@Getmisted statement on page 12
("You do not have the right to education while incarcerated. And if your will is to be educated while in solitary confinment, you now longer have free will either.")
^^^^
why would you not have a right to education in jail..after all I assume there is nothing else to do but educate your self.
Here is a link to prisoners rights below..which clearly states Prisoners have a right to education
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/prison_system/prisoners_rights.html<BR>
Right to Education
You have a right to education while you are in prison.
This area is also considered in Prison Education Services.
therefore as I stated before and also Aqnoz also stated..the right to education proves to be one of the most important of all...if your will is to be educated in jail..YOUR WILL, WILL BE
Even while in Jail the right to education cannot be take away from you.
The right to life in terms of (prison)..on the other hand (which belongs to the Downey Sheets)is no longer your life. You might as well say you have no life. It is taken away from you the moment you enter, you can't live how you want to live or at all because you can be killed. Therefore the right to life in prison is not important at all
@AT getmisted Can you argue why the right to education is not at the top of the list of the most important right.
Education is your right in and out of Jail
@Getmisted statement on page 12
("You do not have the right to education while incarcerated. And if your will is to be educated while in solitary confinment, you now longer have free will either.")
^^^^
why would you not have a right to education in jail..after all I assume there is nothing else to do but educate your self.
Here is a link to prisoners rights below..which clearly states Prisoners have a right to education
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/prison_system/prisoners_rights.html<BR>
Right to Education
You have a right to education while you are in prison.
This area is also considered in Prison Education Services.
therefore as I stated before and also Aqnoz also stated..the right to education proves to be one of the most important of all...if your will is to be educated in jail..YOUR WILL, WILL BE
Even while in Jail the right to education cannot be take away from you.
The right to life in terms of (prison)..on the other hand (which belongs to the Downey Sheets)is no longer your life. You might as well say you have no life. It is taken away from you the moment you enter, you can't live how you want to live or at all because you can be killed. Therefore the right to life in prison is not important at all
@AT getmisted Can you argue why the right to education is not at the top of the list of the most important right.
Education is your right in and out of Jail
Posted by GetMisted
The law can take away you ability to choose. Pretty simple.
Will is your choice.
In Jail you can choose to write a letter to loved ones..Are you telling me you can't do this?
Posted by GetMistedPosted by aquariuslove14Posted by GetMisted
The law can take away you ability to choose. Pretty simple.
Will is your choice.
In Jail you can choose to write a letter to loved ones..Are you telling me you can't do this?
It's subject to censorship. All mail goes through a process in which it is opened an examined before it is deemed fit to send or be recieved.
Again, that right is limited.click to expand
Who cares about a process it goes through..
The right may be (limited/altered) but the will to write the letter is still there otherwise there would not even be a process. Freedom of will is still there. It cannot be fully taken away.
I want to argue against Education being a FUNDAMENTAL human right. Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival. And we can survive without education...it's one of the rights that is a bonus of a civilised society and not the basis of it.
Education does in no way fit the bill on fundamental rights.. it is assimilated to a system of knowledgeable data enforced by society.
You can thrive as a human being with no education whatsoever. Survival by any means is the end game for humanity, education is just one of the many weapons we choose to employ to do it. It is a conscious system we enroll in, it is a choice we make in pursuing it.
^
This explain the education process. It does not link education to the very core of someone's being, it only emphasizes the STRENGTHENING of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. Education builds upon an existing value system??_which is either enforced by society, by family or by the individual himself.
Education does in no way fit the bill on fundamental rights.. it is assimilated to a system of knowledgeable data enforced by society.
You can thrive as a human being with no education whatsoever. Survival by any means is the end game for humanity, education is just one of the many weapons we choose to employ to do it. It is a conscious system we enroll in, it is a choice we make in pursuing it.
Posted by aquariuslove14
Education in its general sense is a form of learning in which the knowledge, skills, and habits of a group of people are transferred from one generation to the next through teaching, training, or research. Education frequently takes place under the guidance of others, but may also be autodidactic.[1] Any experience that has a formative effect on the way one thinks, feels, or acts may be considered educational
The importance of education to the development of intellectual freedom is expressed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 26:
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages . . . .
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial, or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
^
This explain the education process. It does not link education to the very core of someone's being, it only emphasizes the STRENGTHENING of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. Education builds upon an existing value system??_which is either enforced by society, by family or by the individual himself.
continued...
Everyone has the right to the education process but the education itself isn't a fundamental right. To assume this would be claiming people feel strongly for it from the early stages of development and we don't. We only know of education and pursue it because it is one of the many systems in society. It didn't start catering to individual people, it started catering to groups of people. If we take the group away and leave the individual, he will still care more about his immediate physical needs than any necessity of higher learning.
To conclude, in no way, shape of form does education come before life and survival. It is a choice a person makes, not the essence of what defines us as human beings.
Everyone has the right to the education process but the education itself isn't a fundamental right. To assume this would be claiming people feel strongly for it from the early stages of development and we don't. We only know of education and pursue it because it is one of the many systems in society. It didn't start catering to individual people, it started catering to groups of people. If we take the group away and leave the individual, he will still care more about his immediate physical needs than any necessity of higher learning.
To conclude, in no way, shape of form does education come before life and survival. It is a choice a person makes, not the essence of what defines us as human beings.
Posted by StillWater
it is closely tied to survival. .
^I do not dispute this, it is closely tied but does not take precedence over survival. It is secondary, and not fundamental
Posted by StillWater
It is known that human beings, part of our core, is to be social and our ability to survive depends on the society/community we create, no matter how primitive that society may be or how complex as it is in today's world. .
^It does depend on the primitive society because every right draws from the survival instinct. The first man making a fire was not making an act of education, was going on sheer instinct and maybe a stroke of luck.
The end goal is survival. The means of this can include education but are not limited to it.
A fundamental right would still apply if society broke down to a small number of people, scattered around the Earth. Education would be a moot point then, as any interactions between people would cease to exist. We would revert to our survival instincts, no matter how advanced the world we live in is today..
Posted by StillWater
It is also a fact that humans have the highest infant dependency than all mammals. What this means is that education, whether it is a formal institution, home schooling, or the generation passing on of tools, skills, knowledge regarding the environment, is vital to our survival...click to expand
^Yes, while I do not dispute the education process that beginning at a young age, the infant's needs are covered by food, water, oxygen and shelter. Society isn't factoring in at this point, nor can you pass on education as the parent until the brain has developped enough. Education is tied into the rational thought and the ability to pick up important notions that do cater to survival. At the basis of it, it's survival without education. You cannot make on choice on education when you're an infant.
Posted by StillWater
For us humans to understand our environment, including advantages and hazards, indicates our ability to survive against harsh elements of nature and other predators; or merely to survive to make enough money to feed yourself and family in a bureaucratic society....
^Understanding happens innately and it works best by trial and error. The resulting reasoning is education..but the motives that drive us to that aren't. A feral child, dropped into the woods will figure out survival long before the thought of conscious educational patterns enters their brain.
Posted by StillWater
In conclusion, due to our very human essence of being social and surviving as part of a tribe/community/society, as an extension the education accumulated in that society is vital to our survival, and hence the Right to Education is one of the most important Fundamental Human Rights.click to expand
^Survival on our own takes precedence over being social. We can thrive by ourself, using the environment to our advantage. It is an act of observation and instinct.
Posted by StillWater
I do not need to abide to your definition of education. Here it is from my perspective.
It is not our team's definition, is it the definition stated by your team.
I would gladly debate on the definition you provided but there's not much time for this debate and we've already built our arguments against that definition provided by your team. I cannot switch between definitions now...it would be unfair for my team. We work with what we have.
On your stance about needing society and being social to survive...I bring up the thesis in the Lord of Flies book.
When confronted with dire chances of survival, a person will kill all the rest around them because they would hog up all the resources.
We are not discussing the the right to be in a tribe and draw the rest of the rights on it, we are talking about the INDIVIDUAL and his means of thriving. Like I said, it is a bonus but not the requirement for survival.
Posted by StillWater
Thanks for agreeing that it is closely related to survival, which makes it a Higher right than four of your Rights which are more luxuries than survival and of course survival takes precedence over all:
Right to Liberty
Freedom from Discrimination
Right to fair trial
Freedom from torture
I will argue all 5 of the rights posted by your team are choices that derive from fundamental rights. Not only that, but extremely dependant on society. The freedom of thought is the one different.
Freedom of life stands above all 10 rights combined. Without life, we can't have survival (our rights) and we cannot have choices (your rights, with the exception of the freedom of thought).
So you think freedom from torture is a luxury? And freedom from slavery, one of your rights isn't? (not talking about my mindset but I'm trying to understand yours)
Because they are both contingent on the liberty, which is a right we chose.
Posted by Damnata
I want to argue against Education being a FUNDAMENTAL human right. Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival. And we can survive without education...it's one of the rights that is a bonus of a civilised society and not the basis of it.
Education does in no way fit the bill on fundamental rights.. it is assimilated to a system of knowledgeable data enforced by society.
You can thrive as a human being with no education whatsoever. Survival by any means is the end game for humanity, education is just one of the many weapons we choose to employ to do it. It is a conscious system we enroll in, it is a choice we make in pursuing it.
First of all if you want to survive you have to LEARN and EDUCATE yourself on the environment you live in.
Second I could be an idiot and I can still chose to learn new things because I have the freedom to choose to think differently every day of my life.
You can't "thrive" as a human being if you don't even know that putting things into your mouth satisfies your hunger.
Posted by GetMisted
"Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival" - Damnata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution</strong><BR>
Evolution and adaptation. Both are key to the survival of any species including humans. The goal for any species is to "live" long anough to reproduce and allow it's future generations to survive with the least amount of harm it can be exposed to.
With this in mind, the most important human rights are those that allow our species to "live", reproduce, and survive through the generations that follow. Those rights are a need of the human species, not a CHOICE to execute.
-Freedom of thought
-To peaceably assemble and to petition
-Freedom from slavery
-Free will (Choice)
-Education
These are desires, not needs in order to survive. Above all else, the Right to Life serves as the the core right in that for it to be secured, means the survival of the human species. Without it, choices cannot be made. Choice is a process we make in our minds, weighing our options. Our rights happen instantly because they pertain to instinct..way before any rational process is formed into the brain. We must be alive in order to execute a desire or choice.
-Life
-Freedom from torture
-To be considered innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial
-Freedom from discrimination
-Liberty
Everything revolves around survival so the right to life is most important. The rest of the rights we picked compliment it but are by NO means secondary. They follow the right to life closely.
Technically none are needs because unless you know what the purpose of life is... then none of these are needed.
Posted by StillWater
Survival goes beyond infancy. For example, even in a primitive society,do you think a mother or father DOES NOT pass on their understanding of their environment and the training of tools and techniques to survive to their offspring when their offspring is at the appropriate age to learn?
Yes, appropriate age to learn is what I was referring to. Until then the education process isn't formed..it exists in the parents' mindset and they protect the infant applying that but it is not the infant's knowledge.
At that age, the infant's reactions to the world around it are only geared towards instinct and survival. There is no learning of habits from the parents.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by StillWater
I will argue that Education is a Right that is essential to being a human as it is closely tied to survival. It is known that human beings, part of our core, is to be social and our ability to survive depends on the society/community we create, no matter how primitive that society may be or how complex as it is in today's world. It is also a fact that humans have the highest infant dependency than all mammals. What this means is that education, whether it is a formal institution, home schooling, or the generation passing on of tools, skills, knowledge regarding the environment, is vital to our survival.
For us humans to understand our environment, including advantages and hazards, indicates our ability to survive against harsh elements of nature and other predators; or merely to survive to make enough money to feed yourself and family in a bureaucratic society.
In conclusion, due to our very human essence of being social and surviving as part of a tribe/community/society, as an extension the education accumulated in that society is vital to our survival, and hence the Right to Education is one of the most important Fundamental Human Rights.
"The right to education is a universal entitlement to education, recognized in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights as a human right that includes the right to free, compulsory primary education for all, an obligation to develop secondary education accessible to all, in particular by the progressive introduction of free secondary education, as well as an obligation to develop equitable access to higher education, ideally by the progressive introduction of free higher education.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_education<BR>
The Right to Education is defined as above. Primary education is not needed in order for the human species to "survive" as you state. I ask you to produce evidence that in primitive times, there was a primary education institution offered to the human species.click to expand
Education does not need to be "Formal" Education.
Posted by SteveW
Very well then. On to argue another one of your rights: freedom from torture.
Police officers regularly participate in torture methods while their superiors turn a blind eye to it. The infliction of torture in jail/prison is able to be kept secret as they just turn off the cameras, destroy the video tape, or have no camera. Police officers are let go from torture and murder in criminal cases against mentally ill or homeless people while they have the support of their superiors and the jury who does not want to put them in jail/prison with the same people they have put in jail/prison.
So if the police officers are examples of authority in our society and are able to get away with this immoral wrong, why can the US military not also torture suspects of terror? Torture may be the only effective advanced arsenal to use against terrorist groups like Al Quaida. Consider that terrorists themselves also torture people in their societies including their own family members.
As a second defense on freedom of torture following my Airhead team mate
Torture
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Torture (disambiguation).
Torture is the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological pain and possibly injury to a person (or animal)
****Freedom from torture.
Although it is important not to be tortured by others, our own free will is more important because we get to put value on our choices of standing up for or against torture. We torture ourselves in many forms. For example, professional sports, we deliberately inflict great pain upon ourselves (lifting heavy weights etc) in training for days, hours, and months on in just to be crowned champion. Plastic surgery, we undergo pain, with deliberate cuts and a long recovery just to obtain a perfect figure (deliberately injuring ourselves). Torture is going to exist.
Posted by DamnataPosted by StillWater
it is closely tied to survival. .
^I do not dispute this, it is closely tied but does not take precedence over survival. It is secondary, and not fundamental
Posted by StillWater
It is known that human beings, part of our core, is to be social and our ability to survive depends on the society/community we create, no matter how primitive that society may be or how complex as it is in today's world. .
^It does depend on the primitive society because every right draws from the survival instinct. The first man making a fire was not making an act of education, was going on sheer instinct and maybe a stroke of luck.
The end goal is survival. The means of this can include education but are not limited to it.
A fundamental right would still apply if society broke down to a small number of people, scattered around the Earth. Education would be a moot point then, as any interactions between people would cease to exist. We would revert to our survival instincts, no matter how advanced the world we live in is today..
Posted by StillWater
It is also a fact that humans have the highest infant dependency than all mammals. What this means is that education, whether it is a formal institution, home schooling, or the generation passing on of tools, skills, knowledge regarding the environment, is vital to our survival...
^Yes, while I do not dispute the education process that beginning at a young age, the infant's needs are covered by food, water, oxygen and shelter. Society isn't factoring in at this point, nor can you pass on education as the parent until the brain has developped enough. Education is tied into the rational thought and the ability to pick up important notions that do cater to survival. At the basis of it, it's survival without education. You cannot make on choice on education when you're an infant.click to expand
Primitive people had to learn and teach themselves as well.
Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius
First of all if you want to survive you have to LEARN and EDUCATE yourself on the environment you live in.
Second I could be an idiot and I can still chose to learn new things because I have the freedom to choose to think differently every day of my life.
You can't "thrive" as a human being if you don't even know that putting things into your mouth satisfies your hunger.
The freedom to think is not what was in question here, but the right to education which is secondary to survival.
Yes, you will know because survival is geared towards the five senses. It is not geared to the rational thought...it enters that stage only after enough attempts at trial and error were made. Then the conscious mind will draw conclusions from that and will be able to learn.
The world around us is experienced through the senses first, through the instinct, without the rational thought. The creation of fire wasn't achieved through a conscious process.
Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Primitive people had to learn and teach themselves as well.
Yes, by trial and error. Only after a finite number of tries the concept of education appeared..as some tries yielded some results, others yield opposing results.
In between tries, the survival was the force at play.
Humans did not teach others in the initial stage and not even long after. They worked their way around the environment to survive..teaching others would just take precious resources from them.
At some point the group mentality was formed and the solidarity in numbers but this was after the survival instinct led the way.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by Damnata
I want to argue against Education being a FUNDAMENTAL human right. Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival. And we can survive without education...it's one of the rights that is a bonus of a civilised society and not the basis of it.
Education does in no way fit the bill on fundamental rights.. it is assimilated to a system of knowledgeable data enforced by society.
You can thrive as a human being with no education whatsoever. Survival by any means is the end game for humanity, education is just one of the many weapons we choose to employ to do it. It is a conscious system we enroll in, it is a choice we make in pursuing it.
First of all if you want to survive you have to LEARN and EDUCATE yourself on the environment you live in.
Second I could be an idiot and I can still chose to learn new things because I have the freedom to choose to think differently every day of my life.
You can't "thrive" as a human being if you don't even know that putting things into your mouth satisfies your hunger.
Instinct and adaptation (evolution) is needed to survive, not education. We already pointed that out.click to expand
Come Come now really?
"Many species have the ability to adapt through learning."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_behavior_(ecology)??_
"evolutionary edge connected with the way in which he had learned to use his brain."
"sophisticated hunting techniques adapted to their environment."
www.i-c-r.org.uk/publications/monographarchive/Monograph30.pdf??_
Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.
^This is the absolute order of needs for survival.
The other person or society has no place on the first level, which is entirely about survival and the individual, not the group.
Needs > Wants.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by GetMisted
"Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival" - Damnata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution</strong><BR>
Evolution and adaptation. Both are key to the survival of any species including humans. The goal for any species is to "live" long anough to reproduce and allow it's future generations to survive with the least amount of harm it can be exposed to.
With this in mind, the most important human rights are those that allow our species to "live", reproduce, and survive through the generations that follow. Those rights are a need of the human species, not a CHOICE to execute.
-Freedom of thought
-To peaceably assemble and to petition
-Freedom from slavery
-Free will (Choice)
-Education
These are desires, not needs in order to survive. Above all else, the Right to Life serves as the the core right in that for it to be secured, means the survival of the human species. Without it, choices cannot be made. Choice is a process we make in our minds, weighing our options. Our rights happen instantly because they pertain to instinct..way before any rational process is formed into the brain. We must be alive in order to execute a desire or choice.
-Life
-Freedom from torture
-To be considered innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial
-Freedom from discrimination
-Liberty
Everything revolves around survival so the right to life is most important. The rest of the rights we picked compliment it but are by NO means secondary. They follow the right to life closely.
Technically none are needs because unless you know what the purpose of life is... then none of these are needed.
Hey Airhead, The purpose of life is to Live and reproduce. Do you not read?
click to expand
No one knows what the purpose of life is.
Notice that all the elements of the basis pertain to body functions and the senses = SURVIVAL
It doesn't get more fundamental that that...and to achieve that you have to have a pulse..ergo Right of Life is above everything.
Once that is secured, the other rights can come into the picture but they are not FUNDAMENTAL.
It doesn't get more fundamental that that...and to achieve that you have to have a pulse..ergo Right of Life is above everything.
Once that is secured, the other rights can come into the picture but they are not FUNDAMENTAL.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by Damnata
I want to argue against Education being a FUNDAMENTAL human right. Fundamental rights, what we are discussing here, are something that is so INHERENT to the human nature, down to our core. And our core is security from any type of harm.. essentially survival. And we can survive without education...it's one of the rights that is a bonus of a civilised society and not the basis of it.
Education does in no way fit the bill on fundamental rights.. it is assimilated to a system of knowledgeable data enforced by society.
You can thrive as a human being with no education whatsoever. Survival by any means is the end game for humanity, education is just one of the many weapons we choose to employ to do it. It is a conscious system we enroll in, it is a choice we make in pursuing it.
First of all if you want to survive you have to LEARN and EDUCATE yourself on the environment you live in.
Second I could be an idiot and I can still chose to learn new things because I have the freedom to choose to think differently every day of my life.
You can't "thrive" as a human being if you don't even know that putting things into your mouth satisfies your hunger.
Instinct and adaptation (evolution) is needed to survive, not education. We already pointed that out.click to expand
Can't adapt without learning sorry.
I am not trying to go against your rights, as soon as we all agree on the Right of Life being the most important one.
If you disagree and want to argue the Evolution Theory as well as Maslow's research about human needs..I'm all ears.
But let's keep objectivity, without religion and aliens and stuff. Freedom of thought goes only as far until the mind gets biased in subjectivity and forgets about reality. Once a thought pattern is established, there is no real freedom..the brain will work on autopilot.
If you disagree and want to argue the Evolution Theory as well as Maslow's research about human needs..I'm all ears.
But let's keep objectivity, without religion and aliens and stuff. Freedom of thought goes only as far until the mind gets biased in subjectivity and forgets about reality. Once a thought pattern is established, there is no real freedom..the brain will work on autopilot.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by StillWater
Exactly, hence the essence of being human is to be SOCIAL. This means whatever we do learn, we want to express and teach to others, and especially to our offspring.
Our intrinsic desire to be social, to learn and to teach, is one of the main reasons the human species have been so successful in evolving and becoming sophisticated in our societal structures.
You do not need to be social in order to reproduce, which is needed in order to survive as a species.click to expand
How do you expect to mate with anyone if you do not socialize lol!
No one knows what the purpose of life is
^Yes, but for you to state this opinion you need to understand what life is...and that's a word you won't get if you are never born.
Your argument proves my point about the Right of Live being above all the rest.
^Yes, but for you to state this opinion you need to understand what life is...and that's a word you won't get if you are never born.
Your argument proves my point about the Right of Live being above all the rest.
Posted by GetMistedPosted by CluelessCancer
Yes Gad damnit i have a right to be psychologically healthy and have a good healthy self esteem.
that should definitely be a right.
Your self esteem might be higher is you'd smile once in a while 😛click to expand
The right to smile should also be higher on the list because people get attached on that shit 😄
Alas, CC is enforcing her right to be Grumpy
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
No one knows what the purpose of life is.
Seriously? What is the purpose of life, but to live? You live by surviving. You survive by adapting. You adapt by evolving.
Would you like to bring Religion into this?click to expand
You are free to bring w/e you like.
The fact still remains that no one can honestly knows the answer to this question.
There have been many proposed answers but...
" It has been the subject of much philosophical, scientific, and theological speculation throughout history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life
Posted by GetMistedPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by GetMistedPosted by StillWater
Exactly, hence the essence of being human is to be SOCIAL. This means whatever we do learn, we want to express and teach to others, and especially to our offspring.
Our intrinsic desire to be social, to learn and to teach, is one of the main reasons the human species have been so successful in evolving and becoming sophisticated in our societal structures.
You do not need to be social in order to reproduce, which is needed in order to survive as a species.
How do you expect to mate with anyone if you do not socialize lol!
Reproduction is a human instinct, social constructs are not.
click to expand
You have to go out and find a mate .... you can't have sex with yourself outside of being a hermaphrodite and I don't think they can impregnate themselves lol.
Posted by DamnataPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Primitive people had to learn and teach themselves as well.
Yes, by trial and error. Only after a finite number of tries the concept of education appeared..as some tries yielded some results, others yield opposing results.
In between tries, the survival was the force at play.
Humans did not teach others in the initial stage and not even long after. They worked their way around the environment to survive..teaching others would just take precious resources from them.
At some point the group mentality was formed and the solidarity in numbers but this was after the survival instinct led the way.
click to expand
So what were they doing in the meantime before they were supposedly unable to learn anything?
Posted by NotYourAverageAquarius
You are free to bring w/e you like.
The fact still remains that no one can honestly knows the answer to this question.
There have been many proposed answers but...
" It has been the subject of much philosophical, scientific, and theological speculation throughout history."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life
Posted by Damnata
No one knows what the purpose of life is
^Yes, but for you to state this opinion you need to understand what life is...and that's a word you won't get if you are never born.
Your argument proves my point about the Right of Live being above all the rest.click to expand
.
Posted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by DamnataPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Primitive people had to learn and teach themselves as well.
Yes, by trial and error. Only after a finite number of tries the concept of education appeared..as some tries yielded some results, others yield opposing results.
In between tries, the survival was the force at play.
Humans did not teach others in the initial stage and not even long after. They worked their way around the environment to survive..teaching others would just take precious resources from them.
At some point the group mentality was formed and the solidarity in numbers but this was after the survival instinct led the way.
So what were they doing in the meantime before they were supposedly unable to learn anything?click to expand
Trial and error, based of their innate need to survive.
Posted by DamnataPosted by NotYourAverageAquariusPosted by DamnataPosted by NotYourAverageAquarius
Primitive people had to learn and teach themselves as well.
Yes, by trial and error. Only after a finite number of tries the concept of education appeared..as some tries yielded some results, others yield opposing results.
In between tries, the survival was the force at play.
Humans did not teach others in the initial stage and not even long after. They worked their way around the environment to survive..teaching others would just take precious resources from them.
At some point the group mentality was formed and the solidarity in numbers but this was after the survival instinct led the way.
So what were they doing in the meantime before they were supposedly unable to learn anything?
Trial and error, based of their innate need to survive.
click to expand
Okay well then we agree.
Your just saying it differently.
No, what I am saying is there is no rational thought that can overtake instinct of survival. It is THE driving force behind our actions, the Right of Life is the concrete evidence of that and the most important right.
If you agree on that, yes we do agree 🙂
If you agree on that, yes we do agree 🙂
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