Leftist intolerance

Posted by Arielle83

They can’t accept that not everyone cares about what they care about. Then they resort to name calling and ridicule.

Posted by GuardianAnu

Leftists find right wing people to be the intolerant. Right wing find leftists intolerant.


Everyone is fucking intolerant when it comes to such dividing opinions on how the world should be run. No SHIT there is some discourse. Both sides see each other as completely fucking stupid and insane.


That's why being centrist is ideal, yet also mind numbing when observing both sides at their extremes.

Posted by Ixion

Interestingly enough...a one Karl Popper back in the day kinda went over the mental gymnastics that surround the topic of free speech and ended up penning the very famous The Open Society and Its Enemies


The Paradox as it is laid out states:


"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

Posted by Ixion

Interestingly enough...a one Karl Popper back in the day kinda went over the mental gymnastics that surround the topic of free speech and ended up penning the very famous The Open Society and Its Enemies


The Paradox as it is laid out states:


"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on things or having a slightly different view on certain things and wanting to discuss them is viewed as an attack by some of them. They use identity politics or attempt in other ways to completely disregard people and brand them as a villain once they can no longer argue their point. It's a shame that a lot of them are so consumed by their agendas they aren't willing to even discuss things unless it's you parroting whatever they think based on the latest article they read that they take as gospel because they want to appear as progressive as possible to their uni friends. They see everyone as their enemy and rile the troops up recklessly with no concern for consequences. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to them


Obviously this doesn't go for a lot of the left, this is just the more extremist ones, which is however becoming more common. And a lot of these same things I said go for those to the right/far right too. Flip sides of the same coin, horseshoe theory. I don't understand how people don't realize they've been conned into being divided and conquered and bickering amongst ourselves by the 2 party system and racial shit

Posted by ellesbelles

I am 100% happy I dont subscribe to any of this and have no desire to understand it either.

Posted by ellesbelles

I am 100% happy I dont subscribe to any of this and have no desire to understand it either.

Posted by Bk201

Posted by GuardianAnu

Leftists find right wing people to be the intolerant. Right wing find leftists intolerant.


Everyone is fucking intolerant when it comes to such dividing opinions on how the world should be run. No SHIT there is some discourse. Both sides see each other as completely fucking stupid and insane.


That's why being centrist is ideal, yet also mind numbing when observing both sides at their extremes.

I actually used to think the exact same thing until I began evaluating the middle ground fallacy. And the more research I read about social issues ended up pushing me much further to the left than where I was originally. The ideology that resonates with me the most is libertarian(it's why I have a soft spot for them).


But yeah, I lost the ability to view both of the parties as equal to each other.

click to expand

At colleges and universities all over the country, students are protesting in increasingly virulent and sometimes violent ways. They demand safe spaces and trigger warnings, shouting down those with whom they disagree. It has become rote for outsiders to claim that the inmates are running the asylum; that this is analogous to Mao’s Red Guard, Germany’s brown shirts, the French Revolution’s Jacobins; and, when those being attacked are politically “left” themselves, that the Left is eating its own. These stories seem to validate every fantasy the Right ever had about the Left.

Posted by Dianna


People (on both sides) can no longer respect differences of opinion. It always ends up in a pissing contest

> Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on t

This is going to be a long post but bear with me.


1.

Note: A popular point of view(and no not saying that most leftists or liberals(because they are not the same) believe it but I see it a lot). if you don't acknowledge a system of oppression, you're likely to maintain it. There's also the belief that inaction is also action, by not opposing the status you are conforming to it and therefore maintaining it. See how these two feed into each other?


In my experience people on the left tend tp be very patient when discussing issues. But I'm going to explain why thry get frustrated, and the reasoning behind the dogmatic tendencies of some of us.


Those are all very hot button topics. White privilege especially because well if you're a POC, the amount of ignorance that people have concerning racial issues in America is incredibly frustrating. When people cast doubt on things that happened to your aunts, uncles, parents and grandparents, that can be frustrating. Terms like "white privilege” are not just terms to them. They are reflective of many people's experiences.


Plus to add insult to injury, imo most people that argue against white privilege's existence don't even understand what white privilege is. So when you say, especially after they've shown evidence, "There is no such thing as white privilege."


Whata lot of them hear is "Oh look, just another white person that's going to ignore all of my evidence, including studies, my experience, my family's experiences and the one's of my friends because doing so would makes the world more comfortable for them. Even though we are suffering. Well fuck them then."



But the from what I understand from white leftists, they're slightly different. Like POC leftists, they generally want to see systemic racism destroyed(much like POCS leftist). But then they see people, normal people or worse people that they love denying it well. While other people that they know and love suffer.


Things like transgender issues are an incredibly hot button topic due to

The fact that we tend to have many trans and nonbinary friends(and I don’t mean like an acquaintance from down the hall, or a random classmate. I mean actual friends). This makes privy to their stories of harassment, their depression, and(for those that experience it) their stories of how gender dysphoria made have panic attacks(why leftists are so sensitive about pronouns), fallen into depression. And it's not that hard to say their pronouns, and they(transpeople) have more to lose from it than you do.


the suicide rate. In fact, for many leftists, they were introduced to that very topic(either trans people or how often they commit suicide) by the death of Lealah Alcorn. She wrote a very detailed note about why she was committing suicide, what she wanted to be done, and then posted it on tumblr. And a reminder, that was how many people were even introduced to trans issues. And how a large portion became of aware of trans suicides(it was how I became aware of it).


You need to realize that for many people on the left, this isn't about the moral high-ground. They are painfully aware of the consequences being discriminated against, can have on transpeople. And not just in the emotional realm, but also when it comes to jobs and housing.

Both of these issues become very personal.

click to expand

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on things or having a slightly different view on certain things and wanting to discuss them is viewed as an attack by some of them. They use identity politics or attempt in other ways to completely disregard people and brand them as a villain once they can no longer argue their point. It's a shame that a lot of them are so consumed by their agendas they aren't willing to even discuss things unless it's you parroting whatever they think based on the latest article they read that they take as gospel because they want to appear as progressive as possible to their uni friends. They see everyone as their enemy and rile the troops up recklessly with no concern for consequences. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to them


Obviously this doesn't go for a lot of the left, this is just the more extremist ones, which is however becoming more common. And a lot of these same things I said go for those to the right/far right too. Flip sides of the same coin, horseshoe theory. I don't understand how people don't realize they've been conned into being divided and conquered and bickering amongst ourselves by the 2 party system and racial shit

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on things or having a slightly different view on certain things and wanting to discuss them is viewed as an attack by some of them. They use identity politics or attempt in other ways to completely disregard people and brand them as a villain once they can no longer argue their point. It's a shame that a lot of them are so consumed by their agendas they aren't willing to even discuss things unless it's you parroting whatever they think based on the latest article they read that they take as gospel because they want to appear as progressive as possible to their uni friends. They see everyone as their enemy and rile the troops up recklessly with no concern for consequences. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to them


Obviously this doesn't go for a lot of the left, this is just the more extremist ones, which is however becoming more common. And a lot of these same things I said go for those to the right/far right too. Flip sides of the same coin, horseshoe theory. I don't understand how people don't realize they've been conned into being divided and conquered and bickering amongst ourselves by the 2 party system and racial shit

What you described can be said of either party extreme; therefore, propaganda to only complain about the left.


However, I will give you this: it is out of character. The left get's this way out of flagrant abuse and corruption of the opposing party. It's a necessary evil... a checks n' balance and it's proven to be this way historically.


If you know history of politics, world politics, you will understand that extremes beget extremes and it all comes out in the wash or like tug of war. The extremist are on the end of the rope for each team.


Things become emotional, intoletant, extreme on the left when people actually and acutely feel the negative effects of the right in their day to day lives... and, that goes for any party.

I know, I said in my post that it's the same for some on the right too. This thread isn't about the right though, it's about the left

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on things or having a slightly different view on certain things and wanting to discuss them is viewed as an attack by some of them. They use identity politics or attempt in other ways to completely disregard people and brand them as a villain once they can no longer argue their point. It's a shame that a lot of them are so consumed by their agendas they aren't willing to even discuss things unless it's you parroting whatever they think based on the latest article they read that they take as gospel because they want to appear as progressive as possible to their uni friends. They see everyone as their enemy and rile the troops up recklessly with no concern for consequences. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to them


Obviously this doesn't go for a lot of the left, this is just the more extremist ones, which is however becoming more common. And a lot of these same things I said go for those to the right/far right too. Flip sides of the same coin, horseshoe theory. I don't understand how people don't realize they've been conned into being divided and conquered and bickering amongst ourselves by the 2 party system and racial shit

What you described can be said of either party extreme; therefore, propaganda to only complain about the left.


However, I will give you this: it is out of character. The left get's this way out of flagrant abuse and corruption of the opposing party. It's a necessary evil... a checks n' balance and it's proven to be this way historically.


If you know history of politics, world politics, you will understand that extremes beget extremes and it all comes out in the wash or like tug of war. The extremist are on the end of the rope for each team.


Things become emotional, intoletant, extreme on the left when people actually and acutely feel the negative effects of the right in their day to day lives... and, that goes for any party.

I know, I said in my post that it's the same for some on the right too. This thread isn't about the right though, it's about the left

Right. So, I expected discourse on something unique to the Left.

But there really isn't anything unique to the extreme left, that's the point. Other than their doctrines are more politically correct and pushed in the mainstream than extreme right doctrines, which I think I said elsewhere in this thread Idk lol. Also the fact that liberals are typically seen as the "tolerant" party. I think this is why it's notable and worth discussing. I don't see why something happening on the right means we shouldn't point out that it happens on the left too. It's just facts. How is it "propaganda" against the left when I say it can be a problem on the right too? Something doesn't have to be unique for it to be a problem worth discussing. At it's core the extreme right and extreme left are basically the same and have the same potential for evil and atrocities, they just take different forms. You can easily see this concept of horseshoe theory in 20th century history. And you say that the extreme left and right offer "checks and balance" but I don't think there's any balance in either extreme view point, and I don't think "well the other side does it too" is a good argument to justify behavior. I actually think the extremists do nothing but fuel the extremists on the other side, doesn't check them or balance anything imo. And if things come to a head and one side of extremists wins, things become even more unbalanced and nobody will be left to check that political party's power. It's a terrible system. Moderate and reasonable rights and lefts offer checks and balance and when willing to work together offer the best solutions imo. Extreme righties fully believe in and aren't willing to alter the social structures or lend much help to those dispossessed by the systems in place, and extreme lefties want to use the dispossessed to topple the societal structure they see as unfair. There are societal biases but there is also value in the systems that make the world run as well as they do. Which is of course far from perfect, but it's a lot better than having no structure. The goal should be to improve these systems as much as possible, and they have been much improved over time, which I think most reasonable people could agree with. I think that's the best course of action, not beating people in the street, whichever side you're on lol

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

First, I just want to say this doesn't go for all of those on the left, just the more extreme ones. If you don't agree with every single aspect of certain arguments some on the left will lose their mind even if you agree. Wanting to expand on things or having a slightly different view on certain things and wanting to discuss them is viewed as an attack by some of them. They use identity politics or attempt in other ways to completely disregard people and brand them as a villain once they can no longer argue their point. It's a shame that a lot of them are so consumed by their agendas they aren't willing to even discuss things unless it's you parroting whatever they think based on the latest article they read that they take as gospel because they want to appear as progressive as possible to their uni friends. They see everyone as their enemy and rile the troops up recklessly with no concern for consequences. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to them


Obviously this doesn't go for a lot of the left, this is just the more extremist ones, which is however becoming more common. And a lot of these same things I said go for those to the right/far right too. Flip sides of the same coin, horseshoe theory. I don't understand how people don't realize they've been conned into being divided and conquered and bickering amongst ourselves by the 2 party system and racial shit

What you described can be said of either party extreme; therefore, propaganda to only complain about the left.


However, I will give you this: it is out of character. The left get's this way out of flagrant abuse and corruption of the opposing party. It's a necessary evil... a checks n' balance and it's proven to be this way historically.


If you know history of politics, world politics, you will understand that extremes beget extremes and it all comes out in the wash or like tug of war. The extremist are on the end of the rope for each team.


Things become emotional, intoletant, extreme on the left when people actually and acutely feel the negative effects of the right in their day to day lives... and, that goes for any party.

I know, I said in my post that it's the same for some on the right too. This thread isn't about the right though, it's about the left

Right. So, I expected discourse on something unique to the Left.

But there really isn't anything unique to the extreme left, that's the point. Other than their doctrines are more politically correct and pushed in the mainstream than extreme right doctrines, which I think I said elsewhere in this thread Idk lol. Also the fact that liberals are typically seen as the "tolerant" party. I think this is why it's notable and worth discussing. I don't see why something happening on the right means we shouldn't point out that it happens on the left too. It's just facts. How is it "propaganda" against the left when I say it can be a problem on the right too? Something doesn't have to be unique for it to be a problem worth discussing. At it's core the extreme right and extreme left are basically the same and have the same potential for evil and atrocities, they just take different forms. You can easily see this concept of horseshoe theory in 20th century history. And you say that the extreme left and right offer "checks and balance" but I don't think there's any balance in either extreme view point, and I don't think "well the other side does it too" is a good argument to justify behavior. I actually think the extremists do nothing but fuel the extremists on the other side, doesn't check them or balance anything imo. And if things come to a head and one side of extremists wins, things become even more unbalanced and nobody will be left to check that political party's power. It's a terrible system. Moderate and reasonable rights and lefts offer checks and balance and when willing to work together offer the best solutions imo. Extreme righties fully believe in and aren't willing to alter the social structures or lend much help to those dispossessed by the systems in place, and extreme lefties want to use the dispossessed to topple the societal structure they see as unfair. There are societal biases but there is also value in the systems that make the world run as well as they do. Which is of course far from perfect, but it's a lot better than having no structure. The goal should be to improve these systems as much as possible, and they have been much improved over time, which I think most reasonable people could agree with. I think that's the best course of action, not beating people in the street, whichever side you're on lol

You...

...pointed out that this thread was about the Left.


My response was, ,"Right...

... So, I expected discourse on something unique to the Left."


I also said, ,"However, I will give you this: it is out of character."


This is all referenced in bold above.


Everything else you posted after this is subterfuge to this point; however, I find it interesting enough to respond to.


Let's see...


This country used to have character qualifications to hold public office....outside of security and background checks. All of it's gone out the window... ALL OF IT.


Fixing is as simple as that. NOT fake shit about citizenship.

Lol ok. I already said in my original post that it's not all leftists that are like that. It is out of character and only the more extreme are like that. We can agree on that


There have been shitty people in office since the beginnings of this country. You can argue that Trump is the worst of these and you may have a point, but other presidents have done and said some pretty fucked up shit too


But you didn't address anything I said, you just didn't like it and disregard and label it as subterfuge for some reason. You're hostile and not willing to have a conversation for some reason, so goodbye lol

click to expand

Posted by TheWeirdOne


Gun laws, why would you not want Gun laws?

Say me for example, i am having a bad year that has built on top of my already dark past, i am a trained soldier from the UK, immigrates to USA, easily get's licensed to have a weapon then uses it to take out his anger.

Posted by xkraft

Personally, I think identity politics is pushed mainly by the Democratic establishment. Also, to a certain extent, universities and Hollyweird.


It's an easy way to rally your base, much the same way the right does it when they encourage their voters to be anti-immigrant, or foreigner. It allows both parties to proceed with their respective agendas without having to be called out on their corruption.

Posted by Arachnophobia

Tolerance = Strength

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Posted by xkraft

Posted by Bk201

Posted by xkraft

Personally, I think identity politics is pushed mainly by the Democratic establishment. Also, to a certain extent, universities and Hollyweird.


It's an easy way to rally your base, much the same way the right does it when they encourage their voters to be anti-immigrant, or foreigner. It allows both parties to proceed with their respective agendas without having to be called out on their corruption.

Why do you think it's mainly the left?

The right has its own forms of intolerance. They were fine with putting the children of illegal immigrants in "camps". Which is ridiculous.


There's other examples, my point was, the extremes of both sides do it. Perhaps in different ways.

click to expand

Posted by xkraft

Posted by Bk201

Posted by xkraft

Personally, I think identity politics is pushed mainly by the Democratic establishment. Also, to a certain extent, universities and Hollyweird.


It's an easy way to rally your base, much the same way the right does it when they encourage their voters to be anti-immigrant, or foreigner. It allows both parties to proceed with their respective agendas without having to be called out on their corruption.

Why do you think it's mainly the left?

The right has its own forms of intolerance. They were fine with putting the children of illegal immigrants in "camps". Which is ridiculous.


There's other examples, my point was, the extremes of both sides do it. Perhaps in different ways.

click to expand

Posted by xkraft

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by xkraft

Posted by Bk201

Posted by xkraft

Personally, I think identity politics is pushed mainly by the Democratic establishment. Also, to a certain extent, universities and Hollyweird.


It's an easy way to rally your base, much the same way the right does it when they encourage their voters to be anti-immigrant, or foreigner. It allows both parties to proceed with their respective agendas without having to be called out on their corruption.

Why do you think it's mainly the left?

The right has its own forms of intolerance. They were fine with putting the children of illegal immigrants in "camps". Which is ridiculous.


There's other examples, my point was, the extremes of both sides do it. Perhaps in different ways.

The Right propaganda is not about identity as the Left is.


Preach anti-abortion but when your mistress gets pregnant, oh no.

That sort of hypocrisy is old news. The far right, in my opinion, now occupies their own reality.

click to expand

Posted by Bk201

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

1. So at first, I thought this was about just them protesting. Then I read about the fire and violence, and I got where you were coming from. Then I got here:

"The event at Berkeley was expected to kick off a campaign against “sanctuary campuses,” universities that promise to protect students who are in the United States illegally amid Trump's immigration crackdown"


I don't condone violence, but I don't think many people on the right understand the left at all. The reason why these people flew off the handle wasn't because of political ideology but because they see Milo as a very real threat to their friends.

You know......because he was trying to start a campaign against schools that were protecting them. MANY university students know people who are protected under DACA/undocumented people. This is very personal to them, and although this is political, their anger isn't about people disagreeing. It's about people taking action to make people that they care about, unsafe.

2. Is this just about the anger towards the pizzeria? Or the internet threats? Or both?

3.For the last two links, extremists are gonnq extreme are gonna extreme. Unless the Nazis define the right, well a gunmen doesn't define the left. Neither do random people brawling.

click to expand

Posted by nanobot

This thread looks good, I'm going to read it all when I get the chance.


For now I will say that the left is generally just as intolerant as the right, in different ways. I used to identify as "liberal" but I don't anymore. I'm ashamed of new things I have seen, do see everyday, the Hillary/Bernie scandal, etc. Its tainted for me. The liberals used to be seen as the sane ones, but now I see a large percentage as illogical and to be honest, completely unhinged. And what I notice is that they expect everyone to care about how everyone else feels, and that everyone is special and to not offend anyone to the point where it had just gotten ridiculous. The problem is also how intolerant they can be to anyone who doesn't agree with them. Just as the right.


Ex - the obvious lefties who keep destroying the Trump star in Hollywood. I don't even like Trump, didn't vote for him or anything, but how stupid is that shit??? Surely liberals would agree?

Posted by Arachnophobia

So. To bring that into context. A "nazi" does not fit inside your tolerance paradigm. Fair enough, Nazis don't fit inside most peoples tolerance paradigm because they tried to take over an entire continent and wipe out every body's way of thinking. No one could fit that into their paradigm, no matter how tolerant they are of other peoples life style s, choices and ways of thinking. because the Nazi paradigm cannon fit in the same space as everyone else's paradigm, Nazis are about as intolerant as you can get. Okay this is sounding like mental gymnastics now lmfao.


Leftist intolerance is essentially the same, but obviously on much less extreme scale and with very different value systems. It means that a leftists way of thinking does not fit in with someone else's way of thinking, rather than tolerating or accommodating the other peoples way of thinking, they would choose to enforce the leftist view on other people.

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

Posted by Bk201

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

1. So at first, I thought this was about just them protesting. Then I read about the fire and violence, and I got where you were coming from. Then I got here:

"The event at Berkeley was expected to kick off a campaign against “sanctuary campuses,” universities that promise to protect students who are in the United States illegally amid Trump's immigration crackdown"


I don't condone violence, but I don't think many people on the right understand the left at all. The reason why these people flew off the handle wasn't because of political ideology but because they see Milo as a very real threat to their friends.

You know......because he was trying to start a campaign against schools that were protecting them. MANY university students know people who are protected under DACA/undocumented people. This is very personal to them, and although this is political, their anger isn't about people disagreeing. It's about people taking action to make people that they care about, unsafe.

I think you're excusing the behavior here. I noticed you claiming "nobody died/got hurt". And yet, there was property damage. There are videos out there of the violence.


There's this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/25/assault-charge-filed-against-mizzou-professor-who-called-some-muscle/79298692/


Then the Sarah Sanders Red Hen incident, Maxine Waters calling for similar behavior, and on and on.

If one is honest, a pattern emerges. The problem is that there is *no* evidence of calling for a stop to the behavior. Quite the contrary, there is an egging on of the behavior.

Some of it is being paid for, IMHO. If the DOJ would do its job, I believe RICO charges could be brought on the financiers and you would see a drop off.

2. Is this just about the anger towards the pizzeria? Or the internet threats? Or both?

Once again, there is a continuum. About the time this happened, there was the wedding cake incident, a bakery incident, and one glaringly obvious incident 8n which a gay couple drove several hundred miles to pick a fight with an establishment in another state. That latter incident only got a brief blurb in the media and disappeared, probably because it was realized that it was pretty clear that a confrontation was being sought, to "make an example", and would have destroyed the ongoing "narrative".

Other than the religious fanatics, a good chunk on the right IMHO really didnt give two shits about the gay marriage issue, but DID take issue with singling out people and using the legal system to wreck them.

3.For the last two links, extremists are gonnq extreme are gonna extreme. Unless the Nazis define the right, well a gunmen doesn't define the left. Neither do random people brawling.

The gunman, James Hodgekinson, cased the DC area. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter. The actions leading up to the shooting point to specific intent:

https://heavy.com/news/2017/06/james-hodgkinson-alexandria-gop-baseball-shooter-shooting-gunman-identified-illinois/

The media tried to blame the event on Trump--why? Because for at least the last 25 years if not more there has been attempts to pin the prevalence of violence on one side of a political spectrum, while the actual incidents are occurring from the same side making the accusations. There's a list of this and I'm too lazy right now to post it.


The bottom line-while you get a good share of dumbasses on the "right", actual incidents are heavily weighted on the Left, and are glossed over, or some distraction is used to deflect, or (somewhat amusing) gyrations resembling logic being twisted into a pretzel to explain it away.

click to expand

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

Posted by Bk201

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

1. So at first, I thought this was about just them protesting. Then I read about the fire and violence, and I got where you were coming from. Then I got here:

"The event at Berkeley was expected to kick off a campaign against “sanctuary campuses,” universities that promise to protect students who are in the United States illegally amid Trump's immigration crackdown"


I don't condone violence, but I don't think many people on the right understand the left at all. The reason why these people flew off the handle wasn't because of political ideology but because they see Milo as a very real threat to their friends.

You know......because he was trying to start a campaign against schools that were protecting them. MANY university students know people who are protected under DACA/undocumented people. This is very personal to them, and although this is political, their anger isn't about people disagreeing. It's about people taking action to make people that they care about, unsafe.

I think you're excusing the behavior here. I noticed you claiming "nobody died/got hurt". And yet, there was property damage. There are videos out there of the violence.


There's this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/25/assault-charge-filed-against-mizzou-professor-who-called-some-muscle/79298692/


Then the Sarah Sanders Red Hen incident, Maxine Waters calling for similar behavior, and on and on.

If one is honest, a pattern emerges. The problem is that there is *no* evidence of calling for a stop to the behavior. Quite the contrary, there is an egging on of the behavior.

Some of it is being paid for, IMHO. If the DOJ would do its job, I believe RICO charges could be brought on the financiers and you would see a drop off.

2. Is this just about the anger towards the pizzeria? Or the internet threats? Or both?

Once again, there is a continuum. About the time this happened, there was the wedding cake incident, a bakery incident, and one glaringly obvious incident 8n which a gay couple drove several hundred miles to pick a fight with an establishment in another state. That latter incident only got a brief blurb in the media and disappeared, probably because it was realized that it was pretty clear that a confrontation was being sought, to "make an example", and would have destroyed the ongoing "narrative".

Other than the religious fanatics, a good chunk on the right IMHO really didnt give two shits about the gay marriage issue, but DID take issue with singling out people and using the legal system to wreck them.

3.For the last two links, extremists are gonnq extreme are gonna extreme. Unless the Nazis define the right, well a gunmen doesn't define the left. Neither do random people brawling.

The gunman, James Hodgekinson, cased the DC area. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter. The actions leading up to the shooting point to specific intent:

https://heavy.com/news/2017/06/james-hodgkinson-alexandria-gop-baseball-shooter-shooting-gunman-identified-illinois/

The media tried to blame the event on Trump--why? Because for at least the last 25 years if not more there has been attempts to pin the prevalence of violence on one side of a political spectrum, while the actual incidents are occurring from the same side making the accusations. There's a list of this and I'm too lazy right now to post it.


The bottom line-while you get a good share of dumbasses on the "right", actual incidents are heavily weighted on the Left, and are glossed over, or some distraction is used to deflect, or (somewhat amusing) gyrations resembling logic being twisted into a pretzel to explain it away.

You and @ValleysofNeptune are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking.

Property damage?

Do you not comprehend that there may be lovers, friends, families of lovers, friends, being disrupted and how strong an emotion love is? Love equals, in its strongest sense, a willingness to die for the other.

That's why they had that article of young Republicans being dateless

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then? You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically. (Which I was about some things, I'll get to those) And I never asked for an apology, why would I want an apology for something you and me weren't even involved in lol


Ok, so the mayor of Oakland tweeted this out after Nia Wilson was killed:

https://twitter.com/LibbySchaaf/status/1021168411945054208


That's all well and good, except nobody provided any evidence of the alleged group that was showing up, a group called "Proud Boys" according to a person organizing this meetup

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/22/schaaf-backs-bars-response-to-alt-right-groups-planned-oakland-visit/

And then the mob of people beat some alleged members of that group, based on what, who knows

https://heavy.com/news/2018/07/proud-boys-member-beating-video-oakland/


So you know, brand someone a "nazi" without any evidence and people think it's ok to just go and beat people lol. According to some random person on twitter who claims to somewhat know him, he isn't a "nazi" and is good friends with her sister and foster parents 2 African American children

https://twitter.com/popit4miszy/status/1021677472767561729

Now obviously I have no way to confirm this, but she's been on twitter since 2011 and I don't see why she'd be lying, but it's possible


Here's an article about the lawsuit against San Jose Police Department for doing nothing to help Trump supporters

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/trump-supporters-score-legal-victory-suit-san-jose-police/

This was in 2016. Just search "San Jose Trump supporters beaten" or something like that if you want to see more


Now as for the mayor of Berkeley ordering the police to stand down and not really intervene, I'm wrong, or there's no evidence of it. That was apparently the police chief's own call. He did make tweets that seemed to indirectly support people coming out in opposition to protest the right-wing groups, at most. Which it's ok to have that opinion, but when you're the mayor of a city it might be a good idea to make it clear that you don't think physical violence is the answer. But he can't be held responsible for that and condemned those actions later on

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236352680824833

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236303825575936


And you're right, nobody died in the Berkeley riots/demonstrations. My mistake. I thought I remembered reading that one guy who was beaten on the ground later died in the hospital. But apparently I remembered it wrong or I read some incorrect bullshit online. I can't even find the specific video I remember seeing, just lots of other vids of people getting beaten. Some from right wing groups, some from masked antifa people, some from who knows what side


Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue. And I'm not ignoring them, I just don't believe that as many of the people in the groups would be personally affected by it as you think, but there's no real clear way of knowing. Either way my point is that there are some who simply disagree with the ideas these people had, and that's their motivation. Either way doesn't make attacking non-violent people attending an event ok. And I'm not saying you're saying that, or that all the right wing people were non-violent, I'm just saying lol

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

Posted by Bk201

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

1. So at first, I thought this was about just them protesting. Then I read about the fire and violence, and I got where you were coming from. Then I got here:

"The event at Berkeley was expected to kick off a campaign against “sanctuary campuses,” universities that promise to protect students who are in the United States illegally amid Trump's immigration crackdown"


I don't condone violence, but I don't think many people on the right understand the left at all. The reason why these people flew off the handle wasn't because of political ideology but because they see Milo as a very real threat to their friends.

You know......because he was trying to start a campaign against schools that were protecting them. MANY university students know people who are protected under DACA/undocumented people. This is very personal to them, and although this is political, their anger isn't about people disagreeing. It's about people taking action to make people that they care about, unsafe.

I think you're excusing the behavior here. I noticed you claiming "nobody died/got hurt". And yet, there was property damage. There are videos out there of the violence.


There's this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/25/assault-charge-filed-against-mizzou-professor-who-called-some-muscle/79298692/


Then the Sarah Sanders Red Hen incident, Maxine Waters calling for similar behavior, and on and on.

If one is honest, a pattern emerges. The problem is that there is *no* evidence of calling for a stop to the behavior. Quite the contrary, there is an egging on of the behavior.

Some of it is being paid for, IMHO. If the DOJ would do its job, I believe RICO charges could be brought on the financiers and you would see a drop off.

2. Is this just about the anger towards the pizzeria? Or the internet threats? Or both?

Once again, there is a continuum. About the time this happened, there was the wedding cake incident, a bakery incident, and one glaringly obvious incident 8n which a gay couple drove several hundred miles to pick a fight with an establishment in another state. That latter incident only got a brief blurb in the media and disappeared, probably because it was realized that it was pretty clear that a confrontation was being sought, to "make an example", and would have destroyed the ongoing "narrative".

Other than the religious fanatics, a good chunk on the right IMHO really didnt give two shits about the gay marriage issue, but DID take issue with singling out people and using the legal system to wreck them.

3.For the last two links, extremists are gonnq extreme are gonna extreme. Unless the Nazis define the right, well a gunmen doesn't define the left. Neither do random people brawling.

The gunman, James Hodgekinson, cased the DC area. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter. The actions leading up to the shooting point to specific intent:

https://heavy.com/news/2017/06/james-hodgkinson-alexandria-gop-baseball-shooter-shooting-gunman-identified-illinois/

The media tried to blame the event on Trump--why? Because for at least the last 25 years if not more there has been attempts to pin the prevalence of violence on one side of a political spectrum, while the actual incidents are occurring from the same side making the accusations. There's a list of this and I'm too lazy right now to post it.


The bottom line-while you get a good share of dumbasses on the "right", actual incidents are heavily weighted on the Left, and are glossed over, or some distraction is used to deflect, or (somewhat amusing) gyrations resembling logic being twisted into a pretzel to explain it away.

You and @ValleysofNeptune are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking.


I can't believe you felt confident in presenting property damage as a response to being presented the fact that theses students were supporting their friends' ability to no.1 maintain their friendship/relationships of people they care about, their education, and location of where they live... being uprooted.


Property damage?

Do you not comprehend that there may be lovers, friends, families of lovers, friends, being disrupted and how strong an emotion love is? Love equals, in its strongest sense, a willingness to die for the other.


That's why they had that article of young Republicans being dateless

I’m not really a “rightist”, very slightly maybe. As I’ve said already, I think it’s harmful to split into camps and close yourself into a box of viewpoints, so I’d say I’m pretty centrist. There’s a need for conservative viewpoints and liberal viewpoints in politics. Some liberals I talk to understand this and we get along well. Some don’t. Same with conservatives when I tell them this, though tbh they’re usually more open and agreeable to this than modern liberals. You don’t need to be a conservative republican to see that the left has slid very far left lately and that some of them are off their rocker. As I’ve said many times, both sides have extremists any they’re both harmful. Moderate, reasonable viewpoints and cooperation. Not going around falsely accusing people of being nazis and beating them. I don’t see how this is black and white at all. At least not any more or less black and white than your thinking

click to expand

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

Posted by Bk201

Posted by CancerOnTheCusp

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/02/01/uc-berkeley-campus-protest-milo-yiannopoulos-breitbart/97378104/


https://www.southbendtribune.com/news/business/walkerton-pizzeria-under-fire-after-remarks-on-gay-marriage/article_2ca6db40-d884-11e4-94d3-f38665ded699.html


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/14/reports-congressman-others-shot-baseball-practice/102838314/


https://deadline.com/2018/07/hollywood-walk-of-fame-fight-breaks-out-near-damaged-donald-trump-star-1202435553/


And the Left assuages its conscience, or resolves its cognitive dissonance, by saying "Trump made us do it "(except for the pizzeria). It's like an abuser repeating "it's your fault I'm beating on you".


But there are those, like Stephen Cohen, who (in my words) appear to have some revulsion to what is going on with the Left.


Very few sane voices around on the Left, especially after the election of Trump. That also goes for what might be termed as "globalists", right and left alike.

1. So at first, I thought this was about just them protesting. Then I read about the fire and violence, and I got where you were coming from. Then I got here:

"The event at Berkeley was expected to kick off a campaign against “sanctuary campuses,” universities that promise to protect students who are in the United States illegally amid Trump's immigration crackdown"


I don't condone violence, but I don't think many people on the right understand the left at all. The reason why these people flew off the handle wasn't because of political ideology but because they see Milo as a very real threat to their friends.

You know......because he was trying to start a campaign against schools that were protecting them. MANY university students know people who are protected under DACA/undocumented people. This is very personal to them, and although this is political, their anger isn't about people disagreeing. It's about people taking action to make people that they care about, unsafe.

I think you're excusing the behavior here. I noticed you claiming "nobody died/got hurt". And yet, there was property damage. There are videos out there of the violence.


There's this:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/01/25/assault-charge-filed-against-mizzou-professor-who-called-some-muscle/79298692/


Then the Sarah Sanders Red Hen incident, Maxine Waters calling for similar behavior, and on and on.

If one is honest, a pattern emerges. The problem is that there is *no* evidence of calling for a stop to the behavior. Quite the contrary, there is an egging on of the behavior.

Some of it is being paid for, IMHO. If the DOJ would do its job, I believe RICO charges could be brought on the financiers and you would see a drop off.

2. Is this just about the anger towards the pizzeria? Or the internet threats? Or both?

Once again, there is a continuum. About the time this happened, there was the wedding cake incident, a bakery incident, and one glaringly obvious incident 8n which a gay couple drove several hundred miles to pick a fight with an establishment in another state. That latter incident only got a brief blurb in the media and disappeared, probably because it was realized that it was pretty clear that a confrontation was being sought, to "make an example", and would have destroyed the ongoing "narrative".

Other than the religious fanatics, a good chunk on the right IMHO really didnt give two shits about the gay marriage issue, but DID take issue with singling out people and using the legal system to wreck them.

3.For the last two links, extremists are gonnq extreme are gonna extreme. Unless the Nazis define the right, well a gunmen doesn't define the left. Neither do random people brawling.

The gunman, James Hodgekinson, cased the DC area. He was a Bernie Sanders supporter. The actions leading up to the shooting point to specific intent:

https://heavy.com/news/2017/06/james-hodgkinson-alexandria-gop-baseball-shooter-shooting-gunman-identified-illinois/

The media tried to blame the event on Trump--why? Because for at least the last 25 years if not more there has been attempts to pin the prevalence of violence on one side of a political spectrum, while the actual incidents are occurring from the same side making the accusations. There's a list of this and I'm too lazy right now to post it.


The bottom line-while you get a good share of dumbasses on the "right", actual incidents are heavily weighted on the Left, and are glossed over, or some distraction is used to deflect, or (somewhat amusing) gyrations resembling logic being twisted into a pretzel to explain it away.

You and @ValleysofNeptune are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking.

Applying labels. Check. Typical when one on the Left cannot give a cogent response.

Nowhere did I make any right or wrong statement. I presented specific factual examples that the OP was asking for of leftist intolerance.


I can't believe you felt confident in presenting property damage as a response to being presented the fact that theses students were supporting their friends' ability to no.1 maintain their friendship/relationships of people they care about, their education, and location of where they live... being uprooted.

That was not a statement of fact by the OP. It was a statement of opinion.

It was also an obvious attempt to redirect by taking an emotional angle.

Property damage?

Do you not comprehend that there may be lovers, friends, families of lovers, friends, being disrupted and how strong an emotion love is? Love equals, in its strongest sense, a willingness to die for the other.

Property damage IS violence. it is a fact that the protesters engaged in violence. You can sugar coat it anyway you like, but the violence was committed to shut down someone's speech. That was the stated intent by the protesters at the time.

That's why they had that article of young Republicans being dateless

That statement has nothing to do with the topic.

But, thanks for clarifying how you feel about those who don't tow the party line.

It's much easier to dehumanize/delegitimize those who might make you uncomfortable with a different opinion. That's the underlying point--the violence is being justified by claiming the "other " is somehow less or "not worthy".

Don't worry, you're in good company.

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then? You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically. (Which I was about some things, I'll get to those) And I never asked for an apology, why would I want an apology for something you and me weren't even involved in lol


Ok, so the mayor of Oakland tweeted this out after Nia Wilson was killed:

https://twitter.com/LibbySchaaf/status/1021168411945054208


That's all well and good, except nobody provided any evidence of the alleged group that was showing up, a group called "Proud Boys" according to a person organizing this meetup

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/22/schaaf-backs-bars-response-to-alt-right-groups-planned-oakland-visit/

And then the mob of people beat some alleged members of that group, based on what, who knows

https://heavy.com/news/2018/07/proud-boys-member-beating-video-oakland/


So you know, brand someone a "nazi" without any evidence and people think it's ok to just go and beat people lol. According to some random person on twitter who claims to somewhat know him, he isn't a "nazi" and is good friends with her sister and foster parents 2 African American children

https://twitter.com/popit4miszy/status/1021677472767561729

Now obviously I have no way to confirm this, but she's been on twitter since 2011 and I don't see why she'd be lying, but it's possible


Here's an article about the lawsuit against San Jose Police Department for doing nothing to help Trump supporters

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/trump-supporters-score-legal-victory-suit-san-jose-police/

This was in 2016. Just search "San Jose Trump supporters beaten" or something like that if you want to see more


Now as for the mayor of Berkeley ordering the police to stand down and not really intervene, I'm wrong, or there's no evidence of it. That was apparently the police chief's own call. He did make tweets that seemed to indirectly support people coming out in opposition to protest the right-wing groups, at most. Which it's ok to have that opinion, but when you're the mayor of a city it might be a good idea to make it clear that you don't think physical violence is the answer. But he can't be held responsible for that and condemned those actions later on

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236352680824833

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236303825575936


And you're right, nobody died in the Berkeley riots/demonstrations. My mistake. I thought I remembered reading that one guy who was beaten on the ground later died in the hospital. But apparently I remembered it wrong or I read some incorrect bullshit online. I can't even find the specific video I remember seeing, just lots of other vids of people getting beaten. Some from right wing groups, some from masked antifa people, some from who knows what side


Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue. And I'm not ignoring them, I just don't believe that as many of the people in the groups would be personally affected by it as you think, but there's no real clear way of knowing. Either way my point is that there are some who simply disagree with the ideas these people had, and that's their motivation. Either way doesn't make attacking non-violent people attending an event ok. And I'm not saying you're saying that, or that all the right wing people were non-violent, I'm just saying lol

You and @CancerontheCusp are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking. 


For example, you state:

1. "You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically." Your attitude is making you basically illiterate - attitudinal illiteracy. Remember how you misread all my responses to you to the point where I had to re-qoute, reference, bold, underline, highlight?


2. "Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then?" What you don't understand is that it is not wholly politics. It's an identity, a life style , a thinking, a being that is being defended, protected via political action. It is defense.


That's what you don't understand.... when you state: "Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue."


You have to know that. People ashamed of US history of slavery try to say slavery was political too...the infamous states rights arguement. No, people got tired of the atrocities.


Now, we face more atrocities. Children are MISSING!!!!

Yeah, I may have misinterpreted your intention in an earlier conversation, though as the conversation goes on I don’t think I did lol. That doesn’t make me illiterate. You’re the one who can’t answer a direct question or point in a conversation. I understood everything you said about left wing politics. That’s what left wing politics is, more emotionally driven and egalitarian. I don’t know why you’re saying I don’t understand the other other stuff you said about people on the far left, it’s obvious that people hold very personal political opinions that are very important to them andmake up their identities and fuel them. It happens on the left and right. And I mean for all slavery was, immoral, wicked, etc. it was still obviously a political issue as well. Do you have a source for the missing children? I know that there is human trafficking including kids into the United States by criminals, but I assume you’re talking about ICE

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then? You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically. (Which I was about some things, I'll get to those) And I never asked for an apology, why would I want an apology for something you and me weren't even involved in lol


Ok, so the mayor of Oakland tweeted this out after Nia Wilson was killed:

https://twitter.com/LibbySchaaf/status/1021168411945054208


That's all well and good, except nobody provided any evidence of the alleged group that was showing up, a group called "Proud Boys" according to a person organizing this meetup

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/22/schaaf-backs-bars-response-to-alt-right-groups-planned-oakland-visit/

And then the mob of people beat some alleged members of that group, based on what, who knows

https://heavy.com/news/2018/07/proud-boys-member-beating-video-oakland/


So you know, brand someone a "nazi" without any evidence and people think it's ok to just go and beat people lol. According to some random person on twitter who claims to somewhat know him, he isn't a "nazi" and is good friends with her sister and foster parents 2 African American children

https://twitter.com/popit4miszy/status/1021677472767561729

Now obviously I have no way to confirm this, but she's been on twitter since 2011 and I don't see why she'd be lying, but it's possible


Here's an article about the lawsuit against San Jose Police Department for doing nothing to help Trump supporters

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/trump-supporters-score-legal-victory-suit-san-jose-police/

This was in 2016. Just search "San Jose Trump supporters beaten" or something like that if you want to see more


Now as for the mayor of Berkeley ordering the police to stand down and not really intervene, I'm wrong, or there's no evidence of it. That was apparently the police chief's own call. He did make tweets that seemed to indirectly support people coming out in opposition to protest the right-wing groups, at most. Which it's ok to have that opinion, but when you're the mayor of a city it might be a good idea to make it clear that you don't think physical violence is the answer. But he can't be held responsible for that and condemned those actions later on

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236352680824833

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236303825575936


And you're right, nobody died in the Berkeley riots/demonstrations. My mistake. I thought I remembered reading that one guy who was beaten on the ground later died in the hospital. But apparently I remembered it wrong or I read some incorrect bullshit online. I can't even find the specific video I remember seeing, just lots of other vids of people getting beaten. Some from right wing groups, some from masked antifa people, some from who knows what side


Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue. And I'm not ignoring them, I just don't believe that as many of the people in the groups would be personally affected by it as you think, but there's no real clear way of knowing. Either way my point is that there are some who simply disagree with the ideas these people had, and that's their motivation. Either way doesn't make attacking non-violent people attending an event ok. And I'm not saying you're saying that, or that all the right wing people were non-violent, I'm just saying lol

You and @CancerontheCusp are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking. 


For example, you state:

1. "You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically." Your attitude is making you basically illiterate - attitudinal illiteracy. Remember how you misread all my responses to you to the point where I had to re-qoute, reference, bold, underline, highlight?


2. "Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then?" What you don't understand is that it is not wholly politics. It's an identity, a life style , a thinking, a being that is being defended, protected via political action. It is defense.


That's what you don't understand.... when you state: "Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue."


You have to know that. People ashamed of US history of slavery try to say slavery was political too...the infamous states rights arguement. No, people got tired of the atrocities.


Now, we face more atrocities. Children are MISSING!!!!

Yeah, I may have misinterpreted your intention in an earlier conversation, though as the conversation goes on I don’t think I did lol. That doesn’t make me illiterate. You’re the one who can’t answer a direct question or point in a conversation. I understood everything you said about left wing politics. That’s what left wing politics is, more emotionally driven and egalitarian. I don’t know why you’re saying I don’t understand the other other stuff you said about people on the far left, it’s obvious that people hold very personal political opinions that are very important to them andmake up their identities and fuel them. It happens on the left and right. And I mean for all slavery was, immoral, wicked, etc. it was still obviously a political issue as well. Do you have a source for the missing children? I know that there is human trafficking including kids into the United States by criminals, but I assume you’re talking about ICE

What you don't understand is that it is not wholly politics. It's an identity, a life style , a thinking, a being that is being defended, protected via political action. It is defense.

But I do understand what you’re trying to say. I know that politics become all of those things for some people. I never said they don’t. Obviously someone who’s an extremist would often fit those descriptions you listed. But I’m talking about left wing politics and you’re telling me that left wing politics isn’t just left wing politics...ok I guess. Those ideas, values, and principles becoming your identity, life style , and thinking they’re very important and necessary for your well being doesn’t make them not politics, left wing/far left wing politics, what this thread is about. Politics are more than just pieces of paper being passed in capitol buildings. I think we agree with the same general idea here, you just seem reluctant to refer to it as politics. So there’s really no point in splitting hairs on semantics anymore imo

click to expand

Posted by Arielle83

Posted by Bk201

Posted by Arielle83

They can’t accept that not everyone cares about what they care about. Then they resort to name calling and ridicule.

Specific examples(do you mean things like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia)? I believe you about us, but I don't want to write a paragraph and it turns out that I misinterpreted it.


Also by name calling, do you mean calling someone racist, homophobic, transphobic.


Or do you mean things like fascist(lmao)

“I believe you about us.” - what are you saying?


If someone is a racist, homophobe or sexist is not by choice but the creation of their perspective via nature/nurture experiences.


Shaming someone for being a racist, homophobe or sexist, etc (name calling by extreme leftists) doesn’t give a solution to anything. It’s putting ignorance and prejudice against ignorance and prejudice.


You can’t fsult someone who led a life where they grew hate. It makes no sense to continue to shame (hate) on them. You fuel the fire. You create a radical. You need to get to the core and treat them as someone who has had different experiences than you, and realise that not everyone will think like you.


The extremes in left or right do this. They don’t accept anyone’s view unless it fits into their ideology.


This creates segregation and further labels of shame.


Humans aren’t ever going to be perfect. We’ve been dividing and ostracizing each other since primates.

click to expand

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then? You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically. (Which I was about some things, I'll get to those) And I never asked for an apology, why would I want an apology for something you and me weren't even involved in lol


Ok, so the mayor of Oakland tweeted this out after Nia Wilson was killed:

https://twitter.com/LibbySchaaf/status/1021168411945054208


That's all well and good, except nobody provided any evidence of the alleged group that was showing up, a group called "Proud Boys" according to a person organizing this meetup

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/22/schaaf-backs-bars-response-to-alt-right-groups-planned-oakland-visit/

And then the mob of people beat some alleged members of that group, based on what, who knows

https://heavy.com/news/2018/07/proud-boys-member-beating-video-oakland/


So you know, brand someone a "nazi" without any evidence and people think it's ok to just go and beat people lol. According to some random person on twitter who claims to somewhat know him, he isn't a "nazi" and is good friends with her sister and foster parents 2 African American children

https://twitter.com/popit4miszy/status/1021677472767561729

Now obviously I have no way to confirm this, but she's been on twitter since 2011 and I don't see why she'd be lying, but it's possible


Here's an article about the lawsuit against San Jose Police Department for doing nothing to help Trump supporters

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/trump-supporters-score-legal-victory-suit-san-jose-police/

This was in 2016. Just search "San Jose Trump supporters beaten" or something like that if you want to see more


Now as for the mayor of Berkeley ordering the police to stand down and not really intervene, I'm wrong, or there's no evidence of it. That was apparently the police chief's own call. He did make tweets that seemed to indirectly support people coming out in opposition to protest the right-wing groups, at most. Which it's ok to have that opinion, but when you're the mayor of a city it might be a good idea to make it clear that you don't think physical violence is the answer. But he can't be held responsible for that and condemned those actions later on

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236352680824833

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236303825575936


And you're right, nobody died in the Berkeley riots/demonstrations. My mistake. I thought I remembered reading that one guy who was beaten on the ground later died in the hospital. But apparently I remembered it wrong or I read some incorrect bullshit online. I can't even find the specific video I remember seeing, just lots of other vids of people getting beaten. Some from right wing groups, some from masked antifa people, some from who knows what side


Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue. And I'm not ignoring them, I just don't believe that as many of the people in the groups would be personally affected by it as you think, but there's no real clear way of knowing. Either way my point is that there are some who simply disagree with the ideas these people had, and that's their motivation. Either way doesn't make attacking non-violent people attending an event ok. And I'm not saying you're saying that, or that all the right wing people were non-violent, I'm just saying lol

click to expand

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by VenusAquarius

Posted by ValleysofNeptune

Posted by Bk201

@valleysofneptune


1. An explanation is not a justification for their behavior, although frankly I am going to point out that this thread was not advertised as an apology. It's to open discussion, because I strongly think that the left(especially the far left) is not understood. Honestly from how the rest of your argument goes, you don't get them very well. Also please use sources when you're going to list several different events because that makes me have to factcheck them.


2. No one died during berkeley protests. And how were those examples of public figures justifying violence from the left? Also minor fact check, thd protesters didn't beat up the people who were already there. Fights broke out after a group of white men entered the rally from across thestreet. . Which is still wrong, but frankly no news source has been able to tell me why this happened.


3. I'm going to reiterate this. They're motivated to protect the people that they know, not by politics. And yeah, this certainly doesn't go for all of them but so what? I'mjust bringing up a perspective that seems to be lost among people on the right. If you bring up, "IT's not okay to attack people with different politic", it will not faze many of these people because what they're doing isn't motivated by a desire to make a political statement. They see the far right as a threat and their actions stem from that. If you want to change their minds(because many of them don't give a damn about changing the rights mind), you're not going to get anywhere with the "but respect people's politics!" Because this was never what it was about to them. Why are you so keen to uust ignore this type of protester? They'renot a minority.


And another thing, the presence of actual nazis at the rally-NAZIS WHO WERE NOT NONVIOLENT(https://www.kqed.org/news/11611600/californian-who-helped-organize-charlottesville-protests-used-berkeley-as-a-test-run)-could also provoke violence in a protest.


Also, NO ONE WAS BEATEN TO DEATH DURING THE BERKELEY SCHOOL RIOTS.

If you have factual sources that say otherwise please share them.

Resources: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reveal-center-for-investigative-reporting/

Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then? You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically. (Which I was about some things, I'll get to those) And I never asked for an apology, why would I want an apology for something you and me weren't even involved in lol


Ok, so the mayor of Oakland tweeted this out after Nia Wilson was killed:

https://twitter.com/LibbySchaaf/status/1021168411945054208


That's all well and good, except nobody provided any evidence of the alleged group that was showing up, a group called "Proud Boys" according to a person organizing this meetup

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/07/22/schaaf-backs-bars-response-to-alt-right-groups-planned-oakland-visit/

And then the mob of people beat some alleged members of that group, based on what, who knows

https://heavy.com/news/2018/07/proud-boys-member-beating-video-oakland/


So you know, brand someone a "nazi" without any evidence and people think it's ok to just go and beat people lol. According to some random person on twitter who claims to somewhat know him, he isn't a "nazi" and is good friends with her sister and foster parents 2 African American children

https://twitter.com/popit4miszy/status/1021677472767561729

Now obviously I have no way to confirm this, but she's been on twitter since 2011 and I don't see why she'd be lying, but it's possible


Here's an article about the lawsuit against San Jose Police Department for doing nothing to help Trump supporters

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2018/07/27/trump-supporters-score-legal-victory-suit-san-jose-police/

This was in 2016. Just search "San Jose Trump supporters beaten" or something like that if you want to see more


Now as for the mayor of Berkeley ordering the police to stand down and not really intervene, I'm wrong, or there's no evidence of it. That was apparently the police chief's own call. He did make tweets that seemed to indirectly support people coming out in opposition to protest the right-wing groups, at most. Which it's ok to have that opinion, but when you're the mayor of a city it might be a good idea to make it clear that you don't think physical violence is the answer. But he can't be held responsible for that and condemned those actions later on

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236352680824833

https://twitter.com/JesseArreguin/status/827236303825575936


And you're right, nobody died in the Berkeley riots/demonstrations. My mistake. I thought I remembered reading that one guy who was beaten on the ground later died in the hospital. But apparently I remembered it wrong or I read some incorrect bullshit online. I can't even find the specific video I remember seeing, just lots of other vids of people getting beaten. Some from right wing groups, some from masked antifa people, some from who knows what side


Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue. And I'm not ignoring them, I just don't believe that as many of the people in the groups would be personally affected by it as you think, but there's no real clear way of knowing. Either way my point is that there are some who simply disagree with the ideas these people had, and that's their motivation. Either way doesn't make attacking non-violent people attending an event ok. And I'm not saying you're saying that, or that all the right wing people were non-violent, I'm just saying lol

You and @CancerontheCusp are black/white thinkers. Most "Rightists" are. Discussion turns or is processed as I'm right, you're wrong, black/white thinking. 


For example, you state:

1. "You say you want to discuss but yo're just saying "you're wrong" basically." Your attitude is making you basically illiterate - attitudinal illiteracy. Remember how you misread all my responses to you to the point where I had to re-qoute, reference, bold, underline, highlight?


2. "Ok, what don't I understand but left or far left politics then?" What you don't understand is that it is not wholly politics. It's an identity, a life style , a thinking, a being that is being defended, protected via political action. It is defense.


That's what you don't understand.... when you state: "Saying it's "not about politics" isn't correct though. Just because they may be personally affected by it doesn't mean it isn't politics. Politics have effects on our lives and immigration policies are a political issue."


You have to know that. People ashamed of US history of slavery try to say slavery was political too...the infamous states rights arguement. No, people got tired of the atrocities.


Now, we face more atrocities. Children are MISSING!!!!

Yeah, I may have misinterpreted your intention in an earlier conversation, though as the conversation goes on I don’t think I did lol. That doesn’t make me illiterate. You’re the one who can’t answer a direct question or point in a conversation. I understood everything you said about left wing politics. That’s what left wing politics is, more emotionally driven and egalitarian. I don’t know why you’re saying I don’t understand the other other stuff you said about people on the far left, it’s obvious that people hold very personal political opinions that are very important to them andmake up their identities and fuel them. It happens on the left and right. And I mean for all slavery was, immoral, wicked, etc. it was still obviously a political issue as well. Do you have a source for the missing children? I know that there is human trafficking including kids into the United States by criminals, but I assume you’re talking about ICE

What you don't understand is that it is not wholly politics. It's an identity, a life style , a thinking, a being that is being defended, protected via political action. It is defense.

click to expand