PLEASE STOP WHITE GUILT

This topic was created in the Miscellaneous forum by WitchmitchAries on Monday, July 6, 2020 and has 206 replies.
You are on page out of 5 | Reverse Order
details
details
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image
How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image


How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?
click to expand
When i was a young girl my step brother made me get on my knees. I was about 7 years old. He was 10 years older then me. He did shitty things to my sister and I. i had to watch as he did shitty things to my little sister. So FUCK getting on my knees for anyone for any reason. I will never get on my for no one ever again. There are other was to handle or deal with oppressive without making other people feel like shit. That is not how you do it.
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image


How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?
click to expand
When i was a young girl my step brother made me get on my knees. I was about 7 years old. He was 10 years older then me. He did shitty things to my sister and I. i had to watch as he did shitty things to my little sister. So FUCK getting on my knees for anyone for any reason. I will never get on my for no one ever again. There are other was to handle or deal with oppressive without making other people feel like shit. That is not how you do it.
details
A man going up to a woman and making her get on her knees for being white is bullshit. You dont know what that womans been through and then scare her like that.
details
Would if these White people are Jews? They earned everything they have.

holocaust survivor
details
Posted by LittleStar_II
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image


How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?


When i was a young girl my step brother made me get on my knees. I was about 7 years old. He was 10 years older then me. He did shitty things to my sister and I. i had to watch as he did shitty things to my little sister. So FUCK getting on my knees for anyone for any reason. I will never get on my for no one ever again. There are other was to handle or deal with oppressive without making other people feel like shit. That is not how you do it.


You shouldn’t have had to go through that but this (the movement) isn’t about you.
click to expand
Yes it is. This movement is about everyone. When people go about White privilege crap they are making it hard for any poor white people get help. Open your eyes. Because i was white i could get help when i was prego. I didnt get to see a doctor for my pregnancy till i was 7 months. This happen with my first child and the only reason i got to see a doctors was because i almost miscarred
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image


How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?


When i was a young girl my step brother made me get on my knees. I was about 7 years old. He was 10 years older then me. He did shitty things to my sister and I. i had to watch as he did shitty things to my little sister. So FUCK getting on my knees for anyone for any reason. I will never get on my for no one ever again. There are other was to handle or deal with oppressive without making other people feel like shit. That is not how you do it.


You shouldn’t have had to go through that but this (the movement) isn’t about you.


Yes it is. This movement is about everyone. When people go about White privilege crap they are making it hard for any poor white people get help. Open your eyes. Because i was white i could get help when i was prego. I didnt get to see a doctor for my pregnancy till i was 7 months. This happen with my first child and the only reason i got to see a doctors was because i almost miscarred
click to expand
This is about all the crap everyone has been through. If you really want to make a movement do it with everyone in mind. Then you will get somewhere. That is what Martin Luther King and why it worked. You want a movement get notes from him. He was the best
details
Do any of you know the story of poor White Irish people and what they went through? that was one people who got no privilege and nether did the italians.
details
I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image
details
details
Posted by Ixi
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image


White privilege isn't freedom from poverty. White privilege is not freedom from earthly suffering.

You are also not interacting with any explanation given. But truth be told you are not here to actually discuss what it is and how it effects others. You're just here to say you don't like cause it makes you feel bad.
click to expand
I am here to say that this so call White privilege does not apply to all white people. There are other white cultures to take into account here and what they had to go through to get where they are. So do be putting all white people in one pot.
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries

Would if these White people are Jews? They earned everything they have.

holocaust survivor
I don't believe there are too many Holocaust survivors left.
details
Is someone going to go up to Abraham Lincoln and say get on your needs for being White

details
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image
Your personal circumstances were NOT BECAUSE you are white.
details
Posted by Ixi

two black friends that they have who chances are wouldn't be invited to the cookout or fish-fry anyway.
In my experience, they usually call it a "Barbecue".. except there's no bbq. Just hot dogs and Bush's bakes beans.

details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by LittleStar_II

User Submitted Image


How is getting on my knees and saying sorry for being White help get rid of a oppressive?

I have some questions

Have you ever gone days without food?

Have you ever had abuse when you were a child?

Have you ever had people call you white trash?


When i was a young girl my step brother made me get on my knees. I was about 7 years old. He was 10 years older then me. He did shitty things to my sister and I. i had to watch as he did shitty things to my little sister. So FUCK getting on my knees for anyone for any reason. I will never get on my for no one ever again. There are other was to handle or deal with oppressive without making other people feel like shit. That is not how you do it.


You shouldn’t have had to go through that but this (the movement) isn’t about you.


Yes it is. This movement is about everyone. When people go about White privilege crap they are making it hard for any poor white people get help. Open your eyes. Because i was white i could get help when i was prego. I didnt get to see a doctor for my pregnancy till i was 7 months. This happen with my first child and the only reason i got to see a doctors was because i almost miscarred
click to expand
I hope you joined the many that protested for healthcare and continued planned parenting services.

details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by Ixi
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image


White privilege isn't freedom from poverty. White privilege is not freedom from earthly suffering.

You are also not interacting with any explanation given. But truth be told you are not here to actually discuss what it is and how it effects others. You're just here to say you don't like cause it makes you feel bad.


I am here to say that this so call White privilege does not apply to all white people. There are other white cultures to take into account here and what they had to go through to get where they are. So do be putting all white people in one pot.
click to expand
That's a matter of immigration and industrialization of the US.


Please read a sociology book on immigration in the US.

Stop mixing and mangling totally different topics.
details
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.
Can you explain how political parties are a part of this equation?
details
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.
Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.
details
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image


Your personal circumstances were NOT BECAUSE you are white.
click to expand
yes i know that, but when i needed ahcccs i was denied because i lived in a neighborhood with mostly spanish and black people. The woman who handle told me i was not getting it and the truth is because your white.
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image


Your personal circumstances were NOT BECAUSE you are white.


yes i know that, but when i needed ahcccs i was denied because i lived in a neighborhood with mostly spanish and black people. The woman who handle told me i was not getting it and the truth is because your white.
click to expand


That's not enough info to process. However, there are programs that are exclusively for minorities.

The thing is white Americans have had a "head start" for many years. Your families' successes or failures were choices made throughout generations. Choices, good or bad, that were not afforded, alllowed, and sometimes illegal for blacks to pursue.

That the harsh truth but it's also a glorious freedom good, bad, or otherwise... your circumstance were complete freedom... and not illegal.
details
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by WitchmitchAries

I bet most of the people who sit there a bring up the White privilege never lived in their car. Just saying. So is that no one wanted to help me out because i dont need help because i am white? i so could have used this so called white privilege crap when i was on my fourth day and no food. luck me that i lived in AZ because it is against the law to to deny anyone water. I am soooo tired of people telling me what i am.

User Submitted Image


Your personal circumstances were NOT BECAUSE you are white.
click to expand
If you were black or hispanic living in your car you would have probably been arrested or beat up or killed because you were black or hispanic living out of your car. They would probably would have impounded your car and then you would have had nothing..... that is the type of white privilege people are trying to discuss. Not the "I'm white so I'm rich" type of white priv.
details
Posted by Antiphates
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.


What you or others ask for is not relevant for a person personal feeling of guilt or lack thereof.

That's the point. It's a personal choice that everyone makes for themselves on their own accord.
click to expand
Yes, that's clear.

Might have been better if you quoted one of her "get on your knees..." posts.
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries


If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence. And that is particularly fucked-up for many American states - where gun laws are anything but strict. As far as i know - this days, most Americans do favor equal rights for everyone. And that won't change, but even a few bad seeds (with the help of guns) - are enough to turn their neighborhood into a war zone (gangs already prove that).
details
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.
click to expand
Check the 1st video.

Maybe your intents are righteous (for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop), but it's naive to expect the same from everyone. My point is... there is no "WE" - there's just you an others alike (in terms of THINKING - not skin color). And others alike are not defined by the color of your/their skin. The majority might agree with you - even if they don't share the same skin color, but certain people be - of any color (even similar) - have their own personal agenda. Believe it or not - there are people with same ancestry - who find joy and are the cause of other people's suffering. Even if there's an equal amour of saints and devils in this world - it will always feel like there's more devils (pain/suffering stands out more than justice or happiness).
details
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.


Check the 1st video.

Maybe your intents are righteous (for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop), but it's naive to expect the same from everyone. My point is... there is no "WE" - there's just you an others alike (in terms of THINKING - not skin color). And others alike are not defined by the color of your/their skin. The majority might agree with you - even if they don't share the same skin color, but certain people be - of any color (even similar) - have their own personal agenda. Believe it or not - there are people with same ancestry - who find joy and are the cause of other people's suffering. Even if there's an equal amour of saints and devils in this world - it will always feel like there's more devils (pain/suffering stands out more than justice or happiness).
click to expand
Me and others alike is implied.

Evil still exists... as always.

But, being black is not just skin color... it's also culture... which has also been attacked.
details
Posted by LittleStar_II
Posted by WitchmitchAries




You are made up then I guess.
click to expand
I'm 100% sure you didn't watch the video - but jumped to conclusion based on the title alone (judged a book by its cover).

That dude makes a lot of solid points - and if you check the comments on that video - there's no counter arguments (or at least 99.9% agree with what he said - even while sharing the same skin color). Even tho, the guy from the videos made it clear that - he's whiling to debate that topic with everyone (especially people of same color).
details
Posted by neves

If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence.
You need to re-watch. Its not that serious,...

First video - white guy (?) talking to a crowd of white people: "I will use my voice in the most uplifting way possible and do everything in my power to educate my community.", "I will love my black neighbors the same as my white ones.". This is just a group of whites collectively affirming good intentions towards black people.

The commentator tells us "you had 1,000 people on their hands and knees, hands up, basically just beating themselves into the ground...If you didn't do anything to anybody, then why are you apologizing?"

1. No one is on their "hands and knees" in the video - literally not one person. Many are standing, the rest are just sitting.

2. No one is apologizing in the video. The theme there, at least with what is presented, doesn't revolve around guilt at all, and his rhetoric around self-flagellation is totally unwarranted.

Second video is just a dude posing as a member of BLM, very obviously trolling one scared white woman, who seems to figure it out herself half way through and just walk off. Nothing to see here. People do wild things for youtube....
details
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.


Check the 1st video.

Maybe your intents are righteous (for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop), but it's naive to expect the same from everyone. My point is... there is no "WE" - there's just you an others alike (in terms of THINKING - not skin color). And others alike are not defined by the color of your/their skin. The majority might agree with you - even if they don't share the same skin color, but certain people be - of any color (even similar) - have their own personal agenda. Believe it or not - there are people with same ancestry - who find joy and are the cause of other people's suffering. Even if there's an equal amour of saints and devils in this world - it will always feel like there's more devils (pain/suffering stands out more than justice or happiness).


Me and others alike is implied.

Evil still exists... as always.

But, being black is not just skin color... it's also culture... which has also been attacked.
click to expand
When i hear the word culture... my brain starts to give errors - cause such a grey area... I mean, on the positive side... cultures can be interesting, and quite delicious to... THO, on the negative side - it's also the most evil human concept (all things consider). That term is indeed part of your issue... after all it's part of around 90% conflicts - starting with first human tribe who did some things a certain way - till it became their culture... and then they found another tribe - with a different culture they didn't agree with and thus... the first cultural conflict/battle/war started.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the color of your skin - can be found in a multitude of cultures. Even contradictory, After all, your ancestors fought among each-other for thousands of years (even tho they had the same skin color). And same goes for my ancestors. I'm not familiar with the actual statistic - so, i'll use google for that, as in...

"In Africa, there are about 3,000 tribes, speaking more than 2,000 different languages.

The African population has been marked by immense change over time. Some tribes have died out, while others have joined together, been split or even formed due to the continent’s colonisation.

In Africa, you can see the groupings of the many fascinating and unique peoples with your own eyes."

https://www.africasafari.co.uk/blog/tribes-in-africa.htm

(maybe the info is not 100 correct - but i presume they're not that far from the actual statistics - or are they?)

I'm not familiar with all the wars that took place in Africa - since the early days of humanity, tho i do know a bit about Europe's history... Even, tho - the the languages spoken in Europe is way smaller, as in... "There are 24 official languages in Europe… but there are actually more than 200 languages spoken on the continent." Europe's history is riddles with conflicts/battles/wars - fought in the name of cultural beliefs. Same goes for the last major war (WW2).

Again, on the positive side... i do find cultural differences are interesting - especially the food (since i'm a foodie), but then... the word culture is brought up in a context - like the one from this topic, and i can't deal with this shit (is just to much...). Sorry, but the cultural war is not my thing - so hey, good luck with that. There's only temporary winners and a lot of losers anyway. Who know, this word could even be the end of humanity... then again, it was also a big part of the beginning - so i guess it makes sense in that regard (to end just the way it started).
details
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.


Check the 1st video.

Maybe your intents are righteous (for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop), but it's naive to expect the same from everyone. My point is... there is no "WE" - there's just you an others alike (in terms of THINKING - not skin color). And others alike are not defined by the color of your/their skin. The majority might agree with you - even if they don't share the same skin color, but certain people be - of any color (even similar) - have their own personal agenda. Believe it or not - there are people with same ancestry - who find joy and are the cause of other people's suffering. Even if there's an equal amour of saints and devils in this world - it will always feel like there's more devils (pain/suffering stands out more than justice or happiness).


Me and others alike is implied.

Evil still exists... as always.

But, being black is not just skin color... it's also culture... which has also been attacked.


When i hear the word culture... my brain starts to give errors - cause such a grey area... I mean, on the positive side... cultures can be interesting, and quite delicious to... THO, on the negative side - it's also the most evil human concept (all things consider). That term is indeed part of your issue... after all it's part of around 90% conflicts - starting with first human tribe who did some things a certain way - till it became their culture... and then they found another tribe - with a different culture they didn't agree with and thus... the first cultural conflict/battle/war started.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the color of your skin - can be found in a multitude of cultures. Even contradictory, After all, your ancestors fought among each-other for thousands of years (even tho they had the same skin color). And same goes for my ancestors. I'm not familiar with the actual statistic - so, i'll use google for that, as in...

"In Africa, there are about 3,000 tribes, speaking more than 2,000 different languages.

The African population has been marked by immense change over time. Some tribes have died out, while others have joined together, been split or even formed due to the continent’s colonisation.

In Africa, you can see the groupings of the many fascinating and unique peoples with your own eyes."

https://www.africasafari.co.uk/blog/tribes-in-africa.htm

(maybe the info is not 100 correct - but i presume they're not that far from the actual statistics - or are they?)

I'm not familiar with all the wars that took place in Africa - since the early days of humanity, tho i do know a bit about Europe's history... Even, tho - the the languages spoken in Europe is way smaller, as in... "There are 24 official languages in Europe… but there are actually more than 200 languages spoken on the continent." Europe's history is riddles with conflicts/battles/wars - fought in the name of cultural beliefs. Same goes for the last major war (WW2).

Again, on the positive side... i do find cultural differences are interesting - especially the food (since i'm a foodie), but then... the word culture is brought up in a context - like the one from this topic, and i can't deal with this shit (is just to much...). Sorry, but the cultural war is not my thing - so hey, good luck with that. There's only temporary winners and a lot of losers anyway. Who know, this word could even be the end of humanity... then again, it was also a big part of the beginning - so i guess it makes sense in that regard (to end just the way it started).
click to expand
You mentioned the color of skin.

You don't know my heritage or whether I'm of African decent.

Sorry you're grey on culture but, I know mine.
details
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by neves
Posted by VenusAquarius
Posted by Antiphates

I think it comes down to a personal decision. Some might feel forms of guilt and others don't. Both cases have potential to be problematic.

It's a private choice everyone makes for themselves and neither side of the political spectrum has much right to demand that people take the choice those parties deem right.


Who is asking for "guilt?"

We want change. And, for it to stop.


Check the 1st video.

Maybe your intents are righteous (for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop), but it's naive to expect the same from everyone. My point is... there is no "WE" - there's just you an others alike (in terms of THINKING - not skin color). And others alike are not defined by the color of your/their skin. The majority might agree with you - even if they don't share the same skin color, but certain people be - of any color (even similar) - have their own personal agenda. Believe it or not - there are people with same ancestry - who find joy and are the cause of other people's suffering. Even if there's an equal amour of saints and devils in this world - it will always feel like there's more devils (pain/suffering stands out more than justice or happiness).


Me and others alike is implied.

Evil still exists... as always.

But, being black is not just skin color... it's also culture... which has also been attacked.


When i hear the word culture... my brain starts to give errors - cause such a grey area... I mean, on the positive side... cultures can be interesting, and quite delicious to... THO, on the negative side - it's also the most evil human concept (all things consider). That term is indeed part of your issue... after all it's part of around 90% conflicts - starting with first human tribe who did some things a certain way - till it became their culture... and then they found another tribe - with a different culture they didn't agree with and thus... the first cultural conflict/battle/war started.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the color of your skin - can be found in a multitude of cultures. Even contradictory, After all, your ancestors fought among each-other for thousands of years (even tho they had the same skin color). And same goes for my ancestors. I'm not familiar with the actual statistic - so, i'll use google for that, as in...

"In Africa, there are about 3,000 tribes, speaking more than 2,000 different languages.

The African population has been marked by immense change over time. Some tribes have died out, while others have joined together, been split or even formed due to the continent’s colonisation.

In Africa, you can see the groupings of the many fascinating and unique peoples with your own eyes."

https://www.africasafari.co.uk/blog/tribes-in-africa.htm

(maybe the info is not 100 correct - but i presume they're not that far from the actual statistics - or are they?)

I'm not familiar with all the wars that took place in Africa - since the early days of humanity, tho i do know a bit about Europe's history... Even, tho - the the languages spoken in Europe is way smaller, as in... "There are 24 official languages in Europe… but there are actually more than 200 languages spoken on the continent." Europe's history is riddles with conflicts/battles/wars - fought in the name of cultural beliefs. Same goes for the last major war (WW2).

Again, on the positive side... i do find cultural differences are interesting - especially the food (since i'm a foodie), but then... the word culture is brought up in a context - like the one from this topic, and i can't deal with this shit (is just to much...). Sorry, but the cultural war is not my thing - so hey, good luck with that. There's only temporary winners and a lot of losers anyway. Who know, this word could even be the end of humanity... then again, it was also a big part of the beginning - so i guess it makes sense in that regard (to end just the way it started).


You mentioned the color of skin.

You don't know my heritage or whether I'm of African decent.

Sorry you're grey on culture but, I know mine.
click to expand


Not in an cultural context. As pointed out in my first quote, i presumed your protest was about this: "for racial prejudice and unjustified violence - to stop..." My bad (a faulty assumption). If it's a matter of culture - there's very little room for debate, that's like debating with a religious fanatic (that too, is a cultural thing), where - cultural beliefs - are absolute truths. Honestly, i don't have what it takes to be a Jehovah's witnesses (or a good salesman). So hey, good luck - i guess... 🤷

Oh and i know my heritage, i just don't agree with all their beliefs (different times - different beliefs). To me - that's both stupid and dangerous. I'm actually glad that most people from U.S don't feel the same (about their heritage - and the cultural values of their ancestors) - or slavery and racism would still be a strong thing (in some States). Countries like North Korea - are a strong proof of that (oppressive regimes - didn't become obsolete - just because democracy became a common thing this days - on most parts of the world, at least...).
details
You know...

I've never really understood the point to this entire... I don't even know what to call it.

It's not really a conversation. It's not an argument. It's not a debate. I wouldn't even really call it a discussion most instances.

That isn't the part that I don't understand though. What I don't understand is why were even having a "whatever it/this is". Everybody is so hung up on the goddamn semantics of all of this bullshit, but why?

Does a "whatever it/this is" really need to take place if people are simply asking to be treated with an equal level of human decency?

This shouldn't be that hard.

I mean who cares if white privilege is even a thing? People are spending more time trying to define what white privilege is in order to prove whether or not it's a real thing whenever it doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't.

Why can't we just say Hey, there is this disparity over here in this community. How about we work on fixing that together so that we could make the nation better for everyone? or Hey, there's a problem with police violence across the board when it comes to excess force. We need to address that together so that we can make the nation better for everyone.

Working together doesn't cost anything. Treating people with respect doesn't cost anything. Communicating doesn't cost anything. New ideas don't cost anything. Identifying a problem doesn't cost anything.

You know what does cost something?

Purposefully dividing ourselves by race and class. Arguing the petty shit that doesn't matter instead of the fact of the matter. Pointing a finger at somebody and/or expecting / demanding something of people to such an extent that they are closed off from the concept. Bring up deeds of the past instead of bringing up deeds of the future. More violence in The quest for less violence.

What do they cost? Lives. Time. Energy. Money. Slow of Progress just to name a few things

So yeah I really don't understand the point of "whatever it/this is", and I don't have to know any of that to realize some things need to change.

At the end of the day if the absolute and only reason someone has is the simple fact that other people are being made to be fearful unhappy or being left with just an overall sense of feeling less-than... that should be enough all by itself.

How do you fix that? Oh, right. Be a decent fucking human being. Don't shit on other people to make your life better. Don't shit on other people just because you think you're better. Just don't be a shity person, lol.

There's no apology necessary, there's no kneeling, there's no protests, or any of this other rigmarole because none of that is a contributing factor that somebody needs to be less of a shity person.

Let's just all stop being shity and let's all start treating each other with mutual respect, care, kindness, support, and even contributing our time energy and money to the betterment of other people which in turn also benefits us as a nation.

Grrr... It's just so frustrating. I'm done ranting now. I'll go back to my little corner. Lol. I doubt anybody read all of this anyway. *shrug*
details
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves

If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence.


You need to re-watch. Its not that serious,...

First video - white guy (?) talking to a crowd of white people: "I will use my voice in the most uplifting way possible and do everything in my power to educate my community.", "I will love my black neighbors the same as my white ones.". This is just a group of whites collectively affirming good intentions towards black people.

The commentator tells us "you had 1,000 people on their hands and knees, hands up, basically just beating themselves into the ground...If you didn't do anything to anybody, then why are you apologizing?"

1. No one is on their "hands and knees" in the video - literally not one person. Many are standing, the rest are just sitting.

2. No one is apologizing in the video. The theme there, at least with what is presented, doesn't revolve around guilt at all, and his rhetoric around self-flagellation is totally unwarranted.

Second video is just a dude posing as a member of BLM, very obviously trolling one scared white woman, who seems to figure it out herself half way through and just walk off. Nothing to see here. People do wild things for youtube....
click to expand
Check the comments section of that video (some joke about it, some are pissed while others find it repulsive).

details
I've never seen a BIPOC ask white people and passing white people to apologize for their privilege. They only ask that we hear them and acknowledge their voices.







details
Posted by TheApparition

You know...

I've never really understood the point to this entire... I don't even know what to call it.

It's not really a conversation. It's not an argument. It's not a debate. I wouldn't even really call it a discussion most instances.

That isn't the part that I don't understand though. What I don't understand is why were even having a "whatever it/this is". Everybody is so hung up on the goddamn semantics of all of this bullshit, but why?

Does a "whatever it/this is" really need to take place if people are simply asking to be treated with an equal level of human decency?

This shouldn't be that hard.

I mean who cares if white privilege is even a thing? People are spending more time trying to define what white privilege is in order to prove whether or not it's a real thing whenever it doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't.

Why can't we just say Hey, there is this disparity over here in this community. How about we work on fixing that together so that we could make the nation better for everyone? or Hey, there's a problem with police violence across the board when it comes to excess force. We need to address that together so that we can make the nation better for everyone.

Working together doesn't cost anything. Treating people with respect doesn't cost anything. Communicating doesn't cost anything. New ideas don't cost anything. Identifying a problem doesn't cost anything.

You know what does cost something?

Purposefully dividing ourselves by race and class. Arguing the petty shit that doesn't matter instead of the fact of the matter. Pointing a finger at somebody and/or expecting / demanding something of people to such an extent that they are closed off from the concept. Bring up deeds of the past instead of bringing up deeds of the future. More violence in The quest for less violence.

What do they cost? Lives. Time. Energy. Money. Slow of Progress just to name a few things

So yeah I really don't understand the point of "whatever it/this is", and I don't have to know any of that to realize some things need to change.

At the end of the day if the absolute and only reason someone has is the simple fact that other people are being made to be fearful unhappy or being left with just an overall sense of feeling less-than... that should be enough all by itself.

How do you fix that? Oh, right. Be a decent fucking human being. Don't shit on other people to make your life better. Don't shit on other people just because you think you're better. Just don't be a shity person, lol.

There's no apology necessary, there's no kneeling, there's no protests, or any of this other rigmarole because none of that is a contributing factor that somebody needs to be less of a shity person.

Let's just all stop being shity and let's all start treating each other with mutual respect, care, kindness, support, and even contributing our time energy and money to the betterment of other people which in turn also benefits us as a nation.

Grrr... It's just so frustrating. I'm done ranting now. I'll go back to my little corner. Lol. I doubt anybody read all of this anyway. *shrug*
The "whatever it/this is" you keep avoiding in this screed you type, is white privilege. Do you understand what that is and why it's being discussed?
details
Posted by neves
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves

If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence.


You need to re-watch. Its not that serious,...

First video - white guy (?) talking to a crowd of white people: "I will use my voice in the most uplifting way possible and do everything in my power to educate my community.", "I will love my black neighbors the same as my white ones.". This is just a group of whites collectively affirming good intentions towards black people.

The commentator tells us "you had 1,000 people on their hands and knees, hands up, basically just beating themselves into the ground...If you didn't do anything to anybody, then why are you apologizing?"

1. No one is on their "hands and knees" in the video - literally not one person. Many are standing, the rest are just sitting.

2. No one is apologizing in the video. The theme there, at least with what is presented, doesn't revolve around guilt at all, and his rhetoric around self-flagellation is totally unwarranted.

Second video is just a dude posing as a member of BLM, very obviously trolling one scared white woman, who seems to figure it out herself half way through and just walk off. Nothing to see here. People do wild things for youtube....


Check the comments section of that video (some joke about it, some are pissed while others find it repulsive).


click to expand
I'd assume most, including black people (as the comments bear out), would find the 2nd video in somewhat bad taste, if not repulsive....and that's what most of the comments take issue with, many apparently not following along with the inaccuracies in his commentary on the first...If they do misinterpret the first, that really can't be blamed on anyone but the presenter and themselves...Either way, I don't think a video of one troll or a public pledge to be more conscientious around racism, is going to be a major catalyst in a race war.

Bottom line though - there should be no concern around oppression being fought with oppression, as you say, based on these videos.

details
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves

If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence.


You need to re-watch. Its not that serious,...

First video - white guy (?) talking to a crowd of white people: "I will use my voice in the most uplifting way possible and do everything in my power to educate my community.", "I will love my black neighbors the same as my white ones.". This is just a group of whites collectively affirming good intentions towards black people.

The commentator tells us "you had 1,000 people on their hands and knees, hands up, basically just beating themselves into the ground...If you didn't do anything to anybody, then why are you apologizing?"

1. No one is on their "hands and knees" in the video - literally not one person. Many are standing, the rest are just sitting.

2. No one is apologizing in the video. The theme there, at least with what is presented, doesn't revolve around guilt at all, and his rhetoric around self-flagellation is totally unwarranted.

Second video is just a dude posing as a member of BLM, very obviously trolling one scared white woman, who seems to figure it out herself half way through and just walk off. Nothing to see here. People do wild things for youtube....


Check the comments section of that video (some joke about it, some are pissed while others find it repulsive).




I'd assume most, including black people (as the comments bear out), would find the 2nd video in somewhat bad taste, if not repulsive....and that's what most of the comments take issue with, many apparently not following along with the inaccuracies in his commentary on the first...If they do misinterpret the first, that really can't be blamed on anyone but the presenter and themselves...Either way, I don't think a video of one troll or a public pledge to be more conscientious around racism, is going to be a major catalyst in a race war.

Bottom line though - there should be no concern around oppression being fought with oppression, as you say, based on these videos.
click to expand
Again, before making assumptions - just read the comments (of the 2nd video). You can even have a debate with him on Twitter - if you disagree with his points (he actually asked for that).

You're missing the point. Let me put it in a different way... I presume you're familiar with the so called N' word?! Most common word used by dark skin males - among themselves, yet... GOD FORBID a light skin dude dares to say that word (even as a joke). Imagine a light skin guy working with 3 dark skin guys - who use that word around 30 times every minute. Tho, the white guy, obviously will try to block out the most common word used at the work place (which is bound to go into subconscious - that's the basics of human psychology, kinda like someone who keeps repeating "Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant!" - yet, due to repetition that phrase gets stuck in your mind whether you want that or not). Till one night when they all have a drink together, and he accidentally goes.... "yo, ma' n...." That guy is all of a sudden a racist, and let's just hope he wasn't beaten to a pulp.

If a freaking word can trigger someone to that extent, do you actually think most people - would just ignore what they see there (if that video was all over the social media) - and act like it's all cool (just because that video has no effect on you)?! Especially the actual racists - who are usually spiteful for no reason. There's a good reason "Pride" was considered a deadly sin.The thing is... the people from that video were supporting BLM at that protest - and if that's the message they sent (what it means to be a BLM supporter), some of the viewers might get the wrong message - and twink twice about being a BLM supporter. The social norm - dictates how people should behave, but that can change... for better... or worst. The human history is a solid proof of that (most wars didn't start for righteous reasons).
details
Posted by Black-Mamba

@neves you always have some abstract fuking ideas that make no sense to the point of the discussion

why do you do that?
Given me something to work with (an example - where my way of thinking doesn't make any sense - for that given context). 🤔
details
Posted by neves
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves
Posted by Metatron
Posted by neves

If those videos end-up all over the media, or if that starts happening at more protests - a lot of people who were never racists might reconsider (or at least feel and equal amount of hate). While real racists - will turn 5x more racist (which could translate to an equal amount of violence). You can't fight oppression with oppression, that's bound to give rise to even more oppression and violence.


You need to re-watch. Its not that serious,...

First video - white guy (?) talking to a crowd of white people: "I will use my voice in the most uplifting way possible and do everything in my power to educate my community.", "I will love my black neighbors the same as my white ones.". This is just a group of whites collectively affirming good intentions towards black people.

The commentator tells us "you had 1,000 people on their hands and knees, hands up, basically just beating themselves into the ground...If you didn't do anything to anybody, then why are you apologizing?"

1. No one is on their "hands and knees" in the video - literally not one person. Many are standing, the rest are just sitting.

2. No one is apologizing in the video. The theme there, at least with what is presented, doesn't revolve around guilt at all, and his rhetoric around self-flagellation is totally unwarranted.

Second video is just a dude posing as a member of BLM, very obviously trolling one scared white woman, who seems to figure it out herself half way through and just walk off. Nothing to see here. People do wild things for youtube....


Check the comments section of that video (some joke about it, some are pissed while others find it repulsive).




I'd assume most, including black people (as the comments bear out), would find the 2nd video in somewhat bad taste, if not repulsive....and that's what most of the comments take issue with, many apparently not following along with the inaccuracies in his commentary on the first...If they do misinterpret the first, that really can't be blamed on anyone but the presenter and themselves...Either way, I don't think a video of one troll or a public pledge to be more conscientious around racism, is going to be a major catalyst in a race war.

Bottom line though - there should be no concern around oppression being fought with oppression, as you say, based on these videos.


Again, before making assumptions - just read the comments (of the 2nd video). You can even have a debate with him on Twitter - if you disagree with his points (he actually asked for that).

You're missing the point. Let me put it in a different way... I presume you're familiar with the so called N' word?! Most common word used by dark skin males - among themselves, yet... GOD FORBID a light skin dude dares to say that word (even as a joke). Imagine a light skin guy working with 3 dark skin guys - who use that word around 30 times every minute. Tho, the white guy, obviously will try to block out the most common word used at the work place (which is bound to go into subconscious - that's the basics of human psychology, kinda like someone who keeps repeating "Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant! Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant!Do not think of a pink elephant!" - yet, due to repetition that phrase gets stuck in your mind whether you want that or not). Till one night when they all have a drink together, and he accidentally goes.... "yo, ma' n...." That guy is all of a sudden a racist, and let's just hope he wasn't beaten to a pulp.

If a freaking word can trigger someone to that extent, do you actually think most people - would just ignore what they see there (if that video was all over the social media) - and act like it's all cool (just because that video has no effect on you)?! Especially the actual racists - who are usually spiteful for no reason. There's a good reason "Pride" was considered a deadly sin.The thing is... the people from that video were supporting BLM at that protest - and if that's the message they sent (what it means to be a BLM supporter), some of the viewers might get the wrong message - and twink twice about being a BLM supporter. The social norm - dictates how people should behave, but that can change... for better... or worst. The human history is a solid proof of that (most wars didn't start for righteous reasons).
click to expand
I did read the comments and based my response on them. There isn't any debate to be had around his misinterpretation of the first clip. As stated, no one is kneeling or apologizing in at least the portion he presented. You claim I'm missing the point, but that is exactly what I'm addressing. Your point was that oppression is being met with more oppression, and those videos provide no basis for that whatsoever. You can change the subject to an essay on the n-word, buts its not going to change the above. If someone gets the impression that being a BLM supporter means verbally affirming/committing to greater conscientiousness around racism, as a collective, all the better.

And I've seen your arguments around the n-word before. I thought they were ridiculous then, and my opinion still stands. Most usage of the n-word under public discussion does not revolve around anything remotely similar to your fictitious story; its usually around its use as an actual form of intentional slander, or deliberate use by white artists in their recorded music, etc. - not a mistake you can blame on the subconscious.

details
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-blm-woman-knee/fact-check-man-asking-white-woman-to-kneel-and-apologize-is-not-a-representative-of-black-lives-matter-idUSKBN23B359

"The alleged author said it was intended as comedy and confirmed he was not a representative of BLM."

"The author of the video, who refers to himself as “Smooth Sánchez” on his social media profiles, has publicly suggested this video was intended as “satire” and “comedy”
details
Posted by WitchmitchAries


"protests, rioters.. same thing"

..as he sits in from of an American flag, and wearing a hat that says "we the people".
details
Posted by Black-Mamba

@TheApparition everything is done by design, do you think people are segregated cause they want to be segregated

why do you write so much fluff but say nothing. It's kind of annoying.


Sometimes I'm not for everybody always. It's just perhaps the way things are supposed to unfold; maybe.
details
Posted by _Dazed
Posted by TheApparition

You know...

I've never really understood the point to this entire... I don't even know what to call it.

It's not really a conversation. It's not an argument. It's not a debate. I wouldn't even really call it a discussion most instances.

That isn't the part that I don't understand though. What I don't understand is why were even having a "whatever it/this is". Everybody is so hung up on the goddamn semantics of all of this bullshit, but why?

Does a "whatever it/this is" really need to take place if people are simply asking to be treated with an equal level of human decency?

This shouldn't be that hard.

I mean who cares if white privilege is even a thing? People are spending more time trying to define what white privilege is in order to prove whether or not it's a real thing whenever it doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't.

Why can't we just say Hey, there is this disparity over here in this community. How about we work on fixing that together so that we could make the nation better for everyone? or Hey, there's a problem with police violence across the board when it comes to excess force. We need to address that together so that we can make the nation better for everyone.

Working together doesn't cost anything. Treating people with respect doesn't cost anything. Communicating doesn't cost anything. New ideas don't cost anything. Identifying a problem doesn't cost anything.

You know what does cost something?

Purposefully dividing ourselves by race and class. Arguing the petty shit that doesn't matter instead of the fact of the matter. Pointing a finger at somebody and/or expecting / demanding something of people to such an extent that they are closed off from the concept. Bring up deeds of the past instead of bringing up deeds of the future. More violence in The quest for less violence.

What do they cost? Lives. Time. Energy. Money. Slow of Progress just to name a few things

So yeah I really don't understand the point of "whatever it/this is", and I don't have to know any of that to realize some things need to change.

At the end of the day if the absolute and only reason someone has is the simple fact that other people are being made to be fearful unhappy or being left with just an overall sense of feeling less-than... that should be enough all by itself.

How do you fix that? Oh, right. Be a decent fucking human being. Don't shit on other people to make your life better. Don't shit on other people just because you think you're better. Just don't be a shity person, lol.

There's no apology necessary, there's no kneeling, there's no protests, or any of this other rigmarole because none of that is a contributing factor that somebody needs to be less of a shity person.

Let's just all stop being shity and let's all start treating each other with mutual respect, care, kindness, support, and even contributing our time energy and money to the betterment of other people which in turn also benefits us as a nation.

Grrr... It's just so frustrating. I'm done ranting now. I'll go back to my little corner. Lol. I doubt anybody read all of this anyway. *shrug*


The "whatever it/this is" you keep avoiding in this screed you type, is white privilege. Do you understand what that is and why it's being discussed?
click to expand
User Submitted Image
details
Posted by Black-Mamba
Posted by TheApparition
Posted by Black-Mamba

@TheApparition everything is done by design, do you think people are segregated cause they want to be segregated

why do you write so much fluff but say nothing. It's kind of annoying.


Sometimes I'm not for everybody always. It's just perhaps the way things are supposed to unfold; maybe.


Did you read how Breona Taylor is not just about her death or shooting, but the police force and the city are trying to gentrify the area she lives in - its much deeper than how you think or write.
click to expand
If it is deeper than individuals pointing out an issue that needs to be resolved, not only because it's unjust, but also because it is wrong on a fundamental human level then I'll happily read what it is you feel I don't understand.
details
Anthony Brian Logan is a conservative talking head. Nothing more. Fabrications and exaggerations are his forte, much like his conservative counterparts, Tucker and Hannity.
details
Brandon Tatum is an ex-police officer bootlicker.

His allegiance is to the blue line.
details
Posted by TheApparition
Posted by _Dazed
Posted by TheApparition

You know...

I've never really understood the point to this entire... I don't even know what to call it.

It's not really a conversation. It's not an argument. It's not a debate. I wouldn't even really call it a discussion most instances.

That isn't the part that I don't understand though. What I don't understand is why were even having a "whatever it/this is". Everybody is so hung up on the goddamn semantics of all of this bullshit, but why?

Does a "whatever it/this is" really need to take place if people are simply asking to be treated with an equal level of human decency?

This shouldn't be that hard.

I mean who cares if white privilege is even a thing? People are spending more time trying to define what white privilege is in order to prove whether or not it's a real thing whenever it doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't.

Why can't we just say Hey, there is this disparity over here in this community. How about we work on fixing that together so that we could make the nation better for everyone? or Hey, there's a problem with police violence across the board when it comes to excess force. We need to address that together so that we can make the nation better for everyone.

Working together doesn't cost anything. Treating people with respect doesn't cost anything. Communicating doesn't cost anything. New ideas don't cost anything. Identifying a problem doesn't cost anything.

You know what does cost something?

Purposefully dividing ourselves by race and class. Arguing the petty shit that doesn't matter instead of the fact of the matter. Pointing a finger at somebody and/or expecting / demanding something of people to such an extent that they are closed off from the concept. Bring up deeds of the past instead of bringing up deeds of the future. More violence in The quest for less violence.

What do they cost? Lives. Time. Energy. Money. Slow of Progress just to name a few things

So yeah I really don't understand the point of "whatever it/this is", and I don't have to know any of that to realize some things need to change.

At the end of the day if the absolute and only reason someone has is the simple fact that other people are being made to be fearful unhappy or being left with just an overall sense of feeling less-than... that should be enough all by itself.

How do you fix that? Oh, right. Be a decent fucking human being. Don't shit on other people to make your life better. Don't shit on other people just because you think you're better. Just don't be a shity person, lol.

There's no apology necessary, there's no kneeling, there's no protests, or any of this other rigmarole because none of that is a contributing factor that somebody needs to be less of a shity person.

Let's just all stop being shity and let's all start treating each other with mutual respect, care, kindness, support, and even contributing our time energy and money to the betterment of other people which in turn also benefits us as a nation.

Grrr... It's just so frustrating. I'm done ranting now. I'll go back to my little corner. Lol. I doubt anybody read all of this anyway. *shrug*


The "whatever it/this is" you keep avoiding in this screed you type, is white privilege. Do you understand what that is and why it's being discussed?


User Submitted Image
click to expand
From frustrating/ranting.. to it's just a joke.

Sounds to me like this is something you haven't googled yet and are afraid to actually discuss.
details
Posted by Black-Mamba
Posted by TheApparition
Posted by Black-Mamba
Posted by TheApparition
Posted by Black-Mamba

@TheApparition everything is done by design, do you think people are segregated cause they want to be segregated

why do you write so much fluff but say nothing. It's kind of annoying.


Sometimes I'm not for everybody always. It's just perhaps the way things are supposed to unfold; maybe.


Did you read how Breona Taylor is not just about her death or shooting, but the police force and the city are trying to gentrify the area she lives in - its much deeper than how you think or write.


If it is deeper than individuals pointing out an issue that needs to be resolved, not only because it's unjust, but also because it is wrong on a fundamental human level then I'll happily read what it is you feel I don't understand.


There isn't a choice in the matter - nobody is choosing anything - things are being enforced behind the scenes that drive these problems to the forefront
click to expand
I'm not against that point.

What I'm against is continually berating people with that information instead of trying to find a way to come together in order to resolve that in the most just and fair way possible for everyone.
details
First
Previous
Next
Last
Home Astrology Comments Forums Search

©1997-2025 dxpnet.com. All Rights Reserved.
Advertising Contact Terms of Use Privacy Policy