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This topic was created in the Miscellaneous forum by WaterCup on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 and has 69 replies.
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Are psychopaths born or created?
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Posted by Rabbit
Both.



Please explain
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Posted by PVAF
Yay another WC thread!
I think born with predisposition(nature), and then environmental factors increases the probability(nurture).


LOL @ YAY. Girl, please. What you're saying is both, born & created? See, I really don't know what to believe since most known psychophaths had difficult lives..I'm inclined to believe that they're created.
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Posted by cunninglinguist
Born. But whether they become a serial killer or just your average shady executive is largely determined by upbringing.


Isn't acting shady a learned behaviour? Maybe it's some kind of a defense through having dealt with unsavoury characters in the past who were not as forthright in their dealings with the person.
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Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Both.



Please explain


My wife's half sister is a sociopath. Her father was a sociopath. Her daughter is exhibiting some sociopathic tendencies now as well. There MUST be something genetic going on there.
But then again, anyone can be undergo mental/emotional trauma and go cray
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Hence why I believe they're created. Maybe she learned the sociopathic behaviour from her father & through observation, her own child learned it from her. I find it hard to believe that a child can be born with a personality disorder...what happens to the innocence that all kids inherently have?
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Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Both.



Please explain


My wife's half sister is a sociopath. Her father was a sociopath. Her daughter is exhibiting some sociopathic tendencies now as well. There MUST be something genetic going on there.
But then again, anyone can be undergo mental/emotional trauma and go cray


Hence why I believe they're created. Maybe she learned the sociopathic behaviour from her father & through observation, her own child learned it from her. I find it hard to believe that a child can be born with a personality disorder...what happens to the innocence that all kids inherently have?


I would agree, however her child was taken from her as a baby and adopted by a different family member. She didn't grow up in the same house.
Also, my wife grew up with the stepfather and displays none of those tendencies.
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Interesting. Did the child know who her mom was? Did they ever spend time together that time? Kids are impressionable & they sometimes mimick the behaviours of the person they hold in high regard. How old was your wife when her mom married the step father?
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Posted by PVAF
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by PVAF
Yay another WC thread!
I think born with predisposition(nature), and then environmental factors increases the probability(nurture).


LOL @ YAY. Girl, please. What you're saying is both, born & created? See, I really don't know what to believe since most known psychophaths had difficult lives..I'm inclined to believe that they're created.

haha. I wasn't being sarcastic with the yay. You come up with some thought provoking topics. I think it has to be both. Some people come out of horrible upbringings and lead normal well adjusted lives. Then there are others who go on to kill.
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I agree but maybe some are more sensitive than others & the inner damage becomes irreparable. We don't all face/deal with hardships the same way, wouldn't you agree?
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Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Wasn't there a slight difference in the brains of sociopaths compared to "normal" humans? I think it had something to do with reduced activity with areas in the brain that get activated when feeling empathy for others..
I agree with the others that it's nature and nurture combined.


Was the brain scan or w/e done at birth or at adulthood, meaning after the 'damage'?
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Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Rabbit
Both.



Please explain


My wife's half sister is a sociopath. Her father was a sociopath. Her daughter is exhibiting some sociopathic tendencies now as well. There MUST be something genetic going on there.
But then again, anyone can be undergo mental/emotional trauma and go cray


Hence why I believe they're created. Maybe she learned the sociopathic behaviour from her father & through observation, her own child learned it from her. I find it hard to believe that a child can be born with a personality disorder...what happens to the innocence that all kids inherently have?


I would agree, however her child was taken from her as a baby and adopted by a different family member. She didn't grow up in the same house.
Also, my wife grew up with the stepfather and displays none of those tendencies.


Interesting. Did the child know who her mom was? Did they ever spend time together that time? Kids are impressionable & they sometimes mimick the behaviours of the person they hold in high regard. How old was your wife when her mom married the step father?


The daughter was removed before she was 2 years old. My wife was 7 or 8 when her mother remarried.
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Ya, but you didn't answer the other questions. I'm just trying to understand the connection.
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Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Wasn't there a slight difference in the brains of sociopaths compared to "normal" humans? I think it had something to do with reduced activity with areas in the brain that get activated when feeling empathy for others..
I agree with the others that it's nature and nurture combined.


Was the brain scan or w/e done at birth or at adulthood, meaning after the 'damage'?


I'm assuming the scans were performed on adults
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Exactly! So how can they be so sure about these 'differences'? My point is, they do not know if the brain was normal at birth until a certain point when the effects of w/e abuse they endured changed all that & made them who they are now.
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Dahmer had an excellent upbringing he look how he turned out. But, I tend to think it's a combination of both upbringing and natural-born characteristics. Sociopaths are born without the ability to feel certain emotions right?
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Posted by PVAF
Yay another WC thread!
I think born with predisposition(nature), and then environmental factors increases the probability(nurture).


Kind of like alcoholism-- I think it requires a genetic predilection, as well.
One could drink along with his peers early on, but he will be affected differently (i.e. he can't stop).
Of course, many don't believe that, attributing it to lack of willpower-- but I don't think that's possible when you consider the harder cases.

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Posted by cunninglinguist
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by cunninglinguist
Born. But whether they become a serial killer or just your average shady executive is largely determined by upbringing.


Isn't acting shady a learned behaviour? Maybe it's some kind of a defense through having dealt with unsavoury characters in the past who were not as forthright in their dealings with the person.


It could be learned for some non-sociopaths who simply are trying to survive, but there are possible biochemical explanations behind the unsavoury motivations characteristic of sociopaths. Like low activity in the amygdala, low oxytocin, high testosterone. These things are differences in physiology.
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All those highs & lows though could be created by outside pressure though, I believe. I know nothing about physiology, but I still believe something must have triggered something in their being for them to have those abnormalities.
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Rabbit
Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Rabbit
I know I'm about to cut a bitch if this coffee doesn't finish brewing


What type of coffee? I might have hazelnut on the next brew.


Macadamia nut and chocolate fudge mixed


OOohhhh, that's good! Is it the douwe egberts stuff?


Nah it's Target brand. I don't buy good stuff to bring into work. These fools don't deserve it.


Hahaha good thinking, I'd have to agree on that one.
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That sounds amazing. o.O
Idk if I would even share the Target brand.
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Posted by Quest4Water
Dahmer had an excellent upbringing he look how he turned out. But, I tend to think it's a combination of both upbringing and natural-born characteristics. Sociopaths are born without the ability to feel certain emotions right?


Bullying? Abuse doesn't have to be from home. Maybe something outside the home made a great impact on him that forever changed him.
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
Psychopath =/= Sociopath . That being said, Psychopaths are born, Sociopaths are created.


Why do you think so?
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Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Quest4Water
Dahmer had an excellent upbringing he look how he turned out. But, I tend to think it's a combination of both upbringing and natural-born characteristics. Sociopaths are born without the ability to feel certain emotions right?


Bullying? Abuse doesn't have to be from home. Maybe something outside the home made a great impact on him that forever changed him.
click to expand


It could have been some outside influence. I'm not sure but he did say he had a good upbringing. You make a good point though because a lot of female killers I've learned about were deeply sexually traumatized. IE, their mother 'worked' from home in front of the kids.
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
Psychopaths and Sociopaths both have Anti-personality disorder. But as the name indicates, PYSCHE-opaths have brain abnormalities. SOCIO-paths develop their issues because of social conditioning.
Psychopaths are erratic in behaviour, Sociopaths are in control of their behaviour. Psychopaths act on impulse, sociopaths scheme.


Do they know the cause of those brain abnormalities? Were they born with them?
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
Psychopath =/= Sociopath . That being said, Psychopaths are born, Sociopaths are created.


This, but I think it's the other way around. Sociopaths are born. Psychopaths are created.
It seems like I remember reading something about the brain content of sociopaths before. I can't remember exactly what it was right now but the basic idea was that these people are biologically incapable of feeling empathy for other beings. They can learn to mimic emotional responses though in order to gain social acceptance.
Ever met someone that gave you the chill for no reason? It's possible that they were a sociopath, triggering an intuitive kind of predatory detection in the subconscious.
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Posted by Quest4Water
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by Quest4Water
Dahmer had an excellent upbringing he look how he turned out. But, I tend to think it's a combination of both upbringing and natural-born characteristics. Sociopaths are born without the ability to feel certain emotions right?


Bullying? Abuse doesn't have to be from home. Maybe something outside the home made a great impact on him that forever changed him.


It could have been some outside influence. I'm not sure but he did say he had a good upbringing. You make a good point though because a lot of female killers I've learned about were deeply sexually traumatized. IE, their mother 'worked' from home in front of the kids.
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He could have blocked it out but the effects remained. IDK.
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Not exactly peer-reviewed, but still interesting: http://docbonn.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/doc-bonn-explains-the-difference-between-a-sociopath-and-a-psychopath/
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Posted by May31Baby
Wc you said before you like ID have you ever watched most evil?


Yes, it's the show where they rate them based on their crimes, right?
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever

Maybe I had it backwards. It's been a while since I learned any of this stuff.


No, you were correct. After reading the article listed it appears that I was the one who had it backwards. My apologies.
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Posted by PVAF
Yay another WC thread!
I think born with predisposition(nature), and then environmental factors increases the probability(nurture).


+1
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by May31Baby
Wc you said before you like ID have you ever watched most evil?


Yes, it's the show where they rate them based on their crimes, right?


That sounds like the most ridiculous show ever, assigning points and percentages?:-?
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It's actually very interesting, they have mind doctors & the likes & they get to study them
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
That's like giving the viewer a pie chart or scale of macabre naughtiness, seriously!


LOL, some of us find it intriguing. They go deep, they don't just rate.
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Posted by Rabbit
It could be that your born with the propensity for mental illness and environmental factors can exacerbate it?


I think so.
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LOL ofcourse they don't, the just rate them based on gruesomeness of the crime, MOs etc
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever

Yeah, I think that sociopaths probably DO have structural defects in their brains as well as psychopaths. But take Borderline Personality Disorder- people aren't born with it. Yet at some point, emotional trauma causes their brain to stop growing as it normally would have. People with BPD have smaller amygdalas, but it was actually caused by social interference. I think it's probably something similar with sociopaths.


I wonder just how bad a trauma would have to be in order to cause something like this.
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On a similar note, I recall seeing a study that long-term weed smoker's neural activity resembles somebody with schizophrenia.
Food for thought Tongue
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Yes, to me at least & some viewers I believe because it's still running & very popular. They review all the famous killers, like your Bundys etc.
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Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Wasn't there a slight difference in the brains of sociopaths compared to "normal" humans? I think it had something to do with reduced activity with areas in the brain that get activated when feeling empathy for others..



Yes. Studies show that there is less activity in the limbic system in individuals diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder vs. the average individual with non-sociopathic thoughts or behaviours when they are exposed to violent images.
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Posted by WaterCup
Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Wasn't there a slight difference in the brains of sociopaths compared to "normal" humans? I think it had something to do with reduced activity with areas in the brain that get activated when feeling empathy for others..
I agree with the others that it's nature and nurture combined.


Was the brain scan or w/e done at birth or at adulthood, meaning after the 'damage'?
click to expand


This is a good question.
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Montgomery
Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Montgomery
Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by Rabbit
Macadamia nut and chocolate fudge mixed


OOohhhh, that's good! Is it the douwe egberts stuff?


Nah it's Target brand. I don't buy good stuff to bring into work. These fools don't deserve it.


Hahaha good thinking, I'd have to agree on that one.


That sounds amazing. o.O
Idk if I would even share the Target brand.


Owwww!!!! would it be too much to ask for a pinch of sugar too?
Iirc, didn't you once say you had Tory leanings? >smile

click to expand


Umm-- I can neither confirm nor deny that.
And you can have all the sugar you want-- I was just being dramatic. Winking
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever

But I know a bit about BPD because I was diagnosed with it. And its not completely understood. But it is not generally assumed to be caused by a single event. That would probably result in PTSD. BPD is something that actually has a surprisingly specific and lengthy list of events that occur over a long period of time, that are believed to cause the mental detour. However, because BPD is not generally diagnosed until a person reaches adulthood, psychologists make these lists of causation by looking at trends in the reports of patients with BPD. So ya... its not commonly understood, but its believed to be a moment in time but rather an unfortunate series of events that causes it to develop.


That's very interesting. My mother was diagnosed with BPD and the idea that it would take multiple traumas over time is certainly congruent with her specific case.
I'm sorry for whatever you've had to go through that could have done to you. Sad
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Posted by tiziani
Even above and beyond the glamour drugs, diet in general is just incredibly important. Every day food items can transform you. Introducing anything into your body can be an adventure in terms of getting to know yourself biochemically.


Ha! I love this explanation. Big Grin
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Posted by WaterCup
Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Posted by WaterCup
Posted by LadyOfRebirth
Wasn't there a slight difference in the brains of sociopaths compared to "normal" humans? I think it had something to do with reduced activity with areas in the brain that get activated when feeling empathy for others..
I agree with the others that it's nature and nurture combined.


Was the brain scan or w/e done at birth or at adulthood, meaning after the 'damage'?


I'm assuming the scans were performed on adults


Exactly! So how can they be so sure about these 'differences'? My point is, they do not know if the brain was normal at birth until a certain point when the effects of w/e abuse they endured changed all that & made them who they are now.
click to expand


I don't think people really want to go down this road because to complete this type of study you would need to expose children to violent images to identify if areas of the brain are activated. Also, you would have to be very careful of your sample. All the variables would have to be isolated (past exposure to violence [images and personal], abuse [verbal, physical, emotional, neglect], trauma [which varies]) to ensure that none of these factors influence the study. Any of these things, even if it's an isolated incident (depending on the child) can profoundly change a person's life--influencing your results. Basically you would need to get a bunch of babies and follow them throughout the life. Too many ethical implications in doing that.
I'm getting too technical now, but it's a great question.
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Both
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever

Complete and full disclosure... and I mean this with all seriousness... it's my Hades moon in Scorpio what caused it. I mentioned it once in the moons forum, but the description of the Scorpio moon is almost spot on with what someone who has BPD feels emotionally. And add in the Pluto-moon aspect, and descriptions actually suggest upbringings and early events that are some of the most commonly purported causes of BPD. Also, my life path 11 fucked me over.


Those Hades moons lol. I've read some very interesting, if not spooky accurate, descriptions for my own as well. Do you have the square or opposition?
I haven't read much about the other lifepaths than my own but I would say the combination of 5 and some 1 attributes has lead me to get in a few pinches as well.
Posted by everevolvingepithet
Would anyone here do the brain scan experiment?
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I would love to.
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
Posted by PhoenixRising
Posted by Rabbit
It could be that your born with the propensity for mental illness and environmental factors can exacerbate it?


I think so.


I knew a kid who had a propensity for mental illness. After he had dropped acid a few times, it brought out his Schizophrenia. He went from seeming normal to being completely insane due to environmental factors awakening his latent mental sickness.
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Yes. This can be one way that it is triggered. Also environmental stress or trauma can trigger a psychotic episode leading to a disorder. I worked with someone that had his symptoms triggered at age 14 (very rare), but he was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder not schizophrenia. His symptoms were triggered by smoking weed, so it doesn't always have to be that heavy.
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Posted by xcupcake
What is normal though...


Ah-- good point.
Normal is relative!
I think the term is often (mistakenly) used in place of the term "healthy".
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I used to know a woman that would empathically insist she was ODing if she took more than a puff or two while smoking weed. She would have to sit very still in a quiet dark place until the episode was over or she would start having a panic attack of sorts. I could never be sure if she really was having some kind of physiological response or just prone to really bad trips though because she always kept smoking even while knowing what would happen. :/
Only person I've ever seen have such a terrible time with it.
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Posted by everevolvingepithet
Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
Posted by PhoenixRising
Posted by Rabbit
It could be that your born with the propensity for mental illness and environmental factors can exacerbate it?


I think so.


I knew a kid who had a propensity for mental illness. After he had dropped acid a few times, it brought out his Schizophrenia. He went from seeming normal to being completely insane due to environmental factors awakening his latent mental sickness.


Acid's really strong stuff though, I don't think it's one to mess with too much, weed/achohol/etc are nothing in comparison imo.
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That's not actually true in respect to triggering a psychotic episode. In general though, no weed and alcohol don't really compare.
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Posted by Quest4Water
Dahmer had an excellent upbringing he look how he turned out. But, I tend to think it's a combination of both upbringing and natural-born characteristics. Sociopaths are born without the ability to feel certain emotions right?


Dahmer's parents were very odd. His father admitted having "strange" thoughts and urges. I believe it's genetic and something triggers it. His childhood had all the signs that something was off.
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Posted by Synapse
Some people just shouldn't smoke weed. It's not for everyone just like Tylenol's not.


Agreed.
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Human beings, by nature, are given over to greed, selfishness, corruption and evil.
You should consider reading the work of Dr. Lyle Rossiter and Dr. Robert Hare some time.
Hare is actually publishing the results of experiments conducted on psychopaths. A psychopath, by definition, is a person who intentionally harms innocent human beings without remorse or regard for it.
Hare's research indicates something very interesting.
He has taken a group of criminally incarcerated psychopaths, and a group of normal law-abiding citizens.
Each person of each group is isolated into a room, and show various photos. Each person is connected to a computer and sensors that record brainwave stimulation. The only thing initially recorded is whether or not the person has committed criminally psychopathic behavior toward other people.
That said, each person is exposed to a few simple photos of subjects such as puppies running around or children eating ice cream. Suddenly, the subject is exposed to an image of a murdered human being from a crime scene, complete with horrific blood and gore. The normal, law-abiding people all seem to indicate brainwave activity that demonstrates a clear case of shock and disturbance. The psychopaths, on the other hand, have brainwave activity that is TOTALLY INDIFFERENT to the images of horror and death.
He has been conducting this research for a couple decades now, and it is something else to read.
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Posted by cornfuzzled4ever
@TMV neither, actually. they conjunct in Scorpio in my 11th house at 0 degrees.


Wow, that is a potent energy then. I might have to pick your brain a bit at a later time.
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Is there anyone here who is remotely intellectually honest enough to discuss the research of Dr. Robert Hare?
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Posted by ScorpioFish
Is there anyone here who is remotely intellectually honest enough to discuss the research of Dr. Robert Hare?


Which particular point of the research needs to be discussed?
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Posted by TMV
Posted by ScorpioFish
Is there anyone here who is remotely intellectually honest enough to discuss the research of Dr. Robert Hare?


Which particular point of the research needs to be discussed?
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Have you read his research before?
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