On the DL

Have you read the book on the down low?

Do you fear that your man is in the closet?

Is the concept of guys on the DL a media creation or is there an increasing number of men who date women while simultaneously dating men?

Are men on the DL more likely to engage in unprotected sex?

How do you know if you're dating a man on the DL?

I love the Boondocks. It's on USA - Adult Swim now. This episode talks about how homosexuality is increasingly becoming a sub-culture in the hip-hop community due to the influence of prison culture...and yet, how there is an intolerance of gays and lesbians in minority communities.



yeah i know, it's a lil heavy but doooooooooooooooooooooooobie!

I've read the book. I found it vague, although I do realize the issue in and of itself isn't black and white. I agree that unless you catch your man red handed in bed with another man, chances are, the only thing you can really count on is your intuition, as any tell tale 'signs' that your man is on the low, are otherwise pretty hard to come by (unless you've got gaydar like me 🙂). I still thought the book was poorly written, and he couldve thrown some more examples in there. That *is* why women bought the book in the first place.

Aside from that, the most interesting/informative part of the book is that he still denies being gay, or even bisexual for that matter, EVENTHOUGH he sleeps with men.

I'm not sure I believe the whole DL thing is a mere media fabrication, either. Im pretty sure the prison culture is largely responsible, and the homophobia in the black community is what keeps it on the low.

This brings me back to what the author of that book said, though. If prison is responsible, are we to assume that some of these men are only engaging in homosexual activity because they're in prison, and therefore have no choice but to sleep with men? We all know men need to have sex, so if they haven't seen a woman in years and are surrounded by men, is it only natural for them to resort to doing them? If that is in fact the case, I wonder if a lack of women around is even necessary for men to engage in gay sex...what if being surrounded by men for long periods of time increases the likelyhood of gay encounters? Military men, men in professional sports, fishermen, etc come to mind.

All of this really just makes me question what it is to be gay. Are those men actually gay/bisexual, or is it just natural for men to find themselves sexually attracted to other men when they're constantly surrounded by them. Like, if those men weren't in prison, military, etc....would they be less likely to have gay encounters, unless of course they were gay to begin with (born)?

Then one has to ask, is there a difference between being born gay, and just having gay sex from time to time? Like the author, a lot of these men won't even identify with bisexuality. A part of me just thinks they're in denial, but another part of me wonders if perhaps I'm just not completely understanding, seeing as though I'm not a man...I dunno.

Anywho, I read somewhere that dl men are more likely to engage in unprotected sex, b/c the act in and of itself of putting a condom on, only makes what they're doing all the more real. In other words, in their minds, putting the condom on is basically admitting to themselves that they're doing something gay. Isn't that crazy?

But this issue, like AIDS, is something no one in the community wants to talk about. You bring it up and people look at you like you're crazy for even mentioning it.

^^i think men like holes. men are one step above apes in the sex department.

i remember watching some program where they talked about the difference between men's relations in prison vs women. men-men is generally purely sexual. women-women relationships usually involves an emotional connection. like the women will actually share their family history, share pics of their children. so the connection for women goes beyond the physical. it is also emotional and why women are more likely to maintain a lesbian life style post prison in comparison to men.

add that to the fact that men's prostate is in their bum. your prostate is technically your g-spot...or at least close to it. wouldn't it stand to reason that men are naturally stimulated in that area and upon discovery, some are unable to disassociate the physical pleasure from their natural desire? in essence, does the mere act of bum penetration make a man gay? is it enough for a woman to be pleasure down there by another woman to make her lesbian?

at the end of the day though, men like holes...things that look like holes, feel like holes...that's why they're dirty and have problems with fidelity. but it's late and i'm cranky so who knows.

Posted by MsPisces.
Anywho, I read somewhere that dl men are more likely to engage in unprotected sex, b/c the act in and of itself of putting a condom on, only makes what they're doing all the more real. In other words, in their minds, putting the condom on is basically admitting to themselves that they're doing something gay. Isn't that crazy?

yeah, that's why men on the DL bother me moreso than gay men per se. i'm not homophobic. homosexuality wasn't invented in the 20th century. to each his/her own. HOWEVAH!...

our culture is such that we make is so that it's difficult for people to come out. as a result, some people engage in risky behavior to satisfy primal needs. parks, bathrooms...you have it. in those moments, it's wild, it's reckless and one is less likely to protect one's self.

very scary 😢

"add that to the fact that men's prostate is in their bum. your prostate is technically your g-spot...or at least close to it. wouldn't it stand to reason that men are naturally stimulated in that area and upon discovery, some are unable to disassociate the physical pleasure from their natural desire? in essence, does the mere act of bum penetration make a man gay?"


Meant to add that too.


"very scary"

Indeed. I became almost obsessed with this after a good friend of mine found out her man was on the low...and we were fairly young at the time. It was like a smack in the face reality check, to say the least. It has scarred me in a way, and to this day, I can't help but look for 'signs' with every man I meet.

Its one thing to know men can be secretly gay, its another to know that little fact is killing black women. I don't think DL is the sole reason for the epidemic rates of HIV in the black community, but its definitely closely linked. Whats even scarier is not just the denial in the men, but the denial in women. People are so ingorant about it all, its not even funny. HIV is the number one cause of death for black women, and no one wants to talk about it. HIV thrives on that ignorance and denial.

Top 10 Signs of Down Low Behavior and more...

Ugh. You know, that guy really pisses me off.


Anyway, yea, he mentioned that women should pay attention to the eye contact between men. He said even while simply walking down the street, dl men can spot another dl man off of a glance.

Posted by MsPisces.

Indeed. I became almost obsessed with this after a good friend of mine found out her man was on the low...and we were fairly young at the time. It was like a smack in the face reality check, to say the least. It has scarred me in a way, and to this day, I can't help but look for 'signs' with every man I meet.

although everywhere, this is one reason why i avoided atlanta. i had a friend who went to morehouse and he gathered that a lot of young guys who are in the closet go there...for freedom. they're gay up until senior year when they have to return home. many of them maintain long distance relationships with HS sweethearts and upon graduation, marry these women.

overall, i wish america as a whole were more accepting because then we wouldn't have to look for signs. we wouldn't have to worry about unsafe behaviors done in dark places because when it's acceptable, there's no need to be secretive.

*sigh*

Yep. It just kills me to see people rolling their eyes in disgust at homosexuality, when the rolling of those eyes are the essential reason we're fucking dying.

yep, black and latino communities are notorious for homophobia. i don't know if the same can be said for asians and other minorities?

i dated a Rican who voted for Bush in 2004 simply because he was afraid gays would marry. he was getting his masters...intelligent guy but he said "fag" one too many times around me and i couldn't stand it any more. that was our last date. it was a shame because he had a pornstar's d*ck.

"yep, black and latino communities are notorious for homophobia."


Carribeans too, but yea, b/c of that, they're also notorious for dl behavior. I'm not saying it doesn't happen in white american culture, but obviously the more homophobic the culture is, the more likely it is for homsexuality to remain a secret.

"he was getting his masters...intelligent guy but he said "fag" one too many times around me and i couldn't stand it any more. that was our last date. it was a shame because he had a pornstar's d*ck."


lol

It just amazes me when otherwise rather intelligent people display extreme ignorance like that. That would've turned me off too..I'm always weary about men who blatently hate gays.

Anyway, this topic is seriously draining for me. I'm off to bed.

yeah, i'm about to head off myself. got the itis 😛

Oh yes DL is a problem. My sister works in the hospital and everyday she comes home with a story of a DL man and an unsuspecting wife/ gf...its really sad.

Yesterday a guy came in with a bitten off upper lip (completely bitten off!) because he left the club with a "woman" who then turned out to be a man and he was "drunk" ...he was shouting "that fag bit me! that fag bit me!" Due to patient confidentiality no one was aloud to say anything....he calls his girlfriend to come get him and as they are walking out a nurse pulls her to the side and asks her what did he tell you and she says "oh he got into a fight." She's unaware of anything else, when there leaving he looks back at the staff and everyone just shakes their head... the girlfriend leaves standing by her man.

The AIDS is serious, its not getting any better. You would think younger generations who have this beaten in their head from birth would know the dangers, but NO! The cases are still coming and in droves.

I've heard of instances where people are told that someone is infected and the person could care less! #Wheretheydodatat?!

I know of a town with an underground DL society made of up of pastors, preachers, young males, etc...complete and utter orgies with men who claim to be straight.


When you really sit and think about these things you can't help but be weary and leary of men... well at least I cant help but to be since a large number of people just dont care.

Its a trending topic on the black blog e-streets that black males are tired of being assumed to be a DL brotha by women everywhere, they akin it to the "angry black woman" stereotype many ladies are hit with generally unfairly.

*shrug* When they put it that way they have a point lol

OH-EM-GEE!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME—??

his lip? oh wow oh wow oh wow!

you just made me site straight up. that is just...i don't even know what to say. it's one thing to not want your life style to be known. it's another to drag others into your mess. men are horrible, disgusting little creatures.

Very valid thoughts on sexuality, homosexuality specifically. It all really does make you think what exactly does it mean to be gay.

Posted by Lady_M
Very valid thoughts on sexuality, homosexuality specifically. It all really does make you think what exactly does it mean to be gay.

i understand it when it comes to women. but gay men, they seem to be primarily focused on the sex. now that's just me as a casual observer and from what i've noticed with my gay male friends. sex seems the primary motivation and that doesn't surprise me because at the end of the day, they're men.

but what should separate us from lower animals is that we view sex beyond the pleasure aspect. aside from having children, for women at least it's about having an emotional/spiritual connection...at least in the long-term. for most men in the gay community, that doesn't appear to be the case...but again, outside observer here.

you know what i find interesting. the notion that femme/butch lesbians was actually a way to protect lesbian couples in the early 1900s. today, it's more trendy than anything. it's like gay men who are uber-female. historically, it was so that a gay couple could hide in plain site. today, not so much.

i just wish we were more accepting in general. i think that'd make things easier for everyone.

Agreed PP, for those who are gay, I can't imagine living my life on the DL and not being who I am. That's why there is so much misinformation and stuff that goes around, because people are saying one thing, but living their life in a completely different way. People just need to be true to who they are and f#ck the rest. Life is too short to deny who you are and "pretend" to be something else. It's also unfortunate that a few ignorant people can make some people feel bad about what they feel and desire. Trust in the fact that if I were gay, me and my girlfriend would be flossing and living a good life -with no regrets or apologies. In respect to those others who have strong personal beliefs regarding gay people, my questions to them are, "Why does it matter to you? If you are leading the life that YOU want to live, what difference does it make how others are living theirs? Why are you so adamant that others must live the same life as you?" In respect to the DL situation, if people were more comfortable in their own skins and didn't worry about what other people thought, they would likely have better and more honest relationships instead of stringing these women along. I can imagine that a person pretending to be one thing, and doing things on the DL must eventually take its toll because you can run, but you can't hide forever. I've always been around a lot of gay people because my grandmother was a hair stylist, and so was one of my closest cousins, so I've always been around gay people who embraced who they were and made no apologies or pretenses about it.

Posted by Prince_Pisces
"Why does it matter to you? If you are leading the life that YOU want to live, what difference does it make how others are living theirs? Why are you so adamant that others must live the same life as you?"

Its because they're bitter that their lives didnt turn out the way they wanted them to, so they cant stand to see people who they think are "sinners" having a better time, basically lol.

LOL! Touch?! You may be on to something there!

i'm going to say something controversial. i know....surprise, surprise!!!!

i think in terms of parents, intolerance in terms of virtually anything...particularly homosexuality is difficult. when a child is born, what parent doesn't instantly envision a life of ease, prosperity and happiness that involves marrying someone of the opposite sex and biological grandbabies? coming to terms with the fact that the specifics of what you envisioned are no longer a reality but the general things you wanted (life of ease, prosperity and happiness) are still possible takes time.

outside of the family structure though, it really is a "nunya" dynamic but the reality is, we are influenced by the world around us. and any given society has a "norm" by which folks are expected to operate. that norm can be cultural, regional, gender-specific. the bigger question therefore is, is there anything wrong with social norms? and if there is something wrong with them, how do we change the norm?

for example, in the US, we don't close-talk. close-talking is bad. that's simple. no big deal there. most people in our culture don't do it.



--

what about women breast feeding in public? is that ok?



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if these things are controversial, wouldn't it stand to reason that same-sex kissing in public would be equally controversial?

"How do we change the norm?" I don't think we can, nor should we try. What's a norm for one is not necessarily for another, and as you stated in your second paragraph, "that norm can be cultural, regional, gender-specific."

There are people who have been brought up into a two parent, mother & father family - that's normal to them. There are people who have been brought up by only one parent - that's normal to them. There are people who have been brought up by their grandparents' - that's normal to them. There are some who think close talking is annoying - there are some who don't. There are some who believe breast feeding is inappropriate - there are some who don't. The point - there are no right or wrong answers, just differences in life experiences. There are families who think it's perfectly reasonable for the parents to have housekeys to their home and come over unannounced at anytime. I'll give you an example - my friend was married (now divorced). I made an off the cuff comment about sex in the kitchen. She looked at me and said, "Oh goodness, that could never happen. My mom has a key to the house and comes over whenever she wants, so we could never do that." In my world, I don't go anywhere unannounced - parents, friends, other family members, etc. I, personally, think that's incredibly rude to go over to someones house unannounced (unless it is an extreme emergency), and I damn sure wouldn't just let myself into their home; but to some there is nothing wrong with that and it is even in their eyes, "normal" for their family to have full access to their home and everything else. Again, there are no right & wrong answers, just differences. What is acceptable behavior in my eyes may not be in others, and vice versa, but more to the point, I live my life for me. Not my parents, friends, colleagues or business partners. Other than things that are considered illegal by the eyes of the law (cause I don't want to go to jail), I do whatever I want to do, and assume others are living their life doing whatever they want to do too.

In the black community in 2010 it's unacceptable to be gay, as one gay black man said, it's hard being black and gay in the ghetto.

I hate the DL life style , it's dishonest, disrespectful, disgusting, irresponsible and it's reckless and it hurts the black community on a whole. I wish brotha's would stop running and hiding and STAND UP, fight the good fight just like all the other gay males have had to do throughout history, take their freedom out of everybody elses hands and just be who they want to be....

And notice I said the DL life style is disgusting, not gay people are distgusting...

Posted by tiki33
stop running and hiding and STAND UP, fight the good fight just like all the other gay males have had to do throughout history

Exactly. Stand and deliver.

Well I don't think that there's 1 right/wrong answer to the questions. For some men, yes they're in denial (b/c of society's standards/stereotypes or whateveR) about their true sexuality all along, thus it's easier for them to come out when they're finally in an environment where being in denial but yet still doing the action is more acceptable. And for some men & for the human species in general, some men feel that they are adapting more to their environment where bisexuality is okay, moreso than them agreeing or being willing to accept the actual behavior or action. Some men call it survival of the fittest. For example, we all love food that we can cook & that looks & tastes good, BUT if we were to run out of that food, it's only natural that humans would stop eating food for the taste & would instead start eating b/c it's essential to their health, whether it tastes/looks good or not. It's not to say that a homeless person, for example actually likes cat food BUT if they convince themselves that their only means of survival surround upon eating SOMETHING, then while yes they might eat just about anything just to make sure their bodies don't starve, BUT they won't ever necessarily admit they actually LIKED what they were eating the whole time either. So I think it's kind of the same when it comes to men on the down low. Some men, of course are just in denial & for whatever reason, will not come out of the "closet" until they feel they are an environment that socially allows them to do so without necessarily getting punished or thwarted for (prison, for example). And of course those men were already gay. BUT, then again, you've got some men who will engage in same-sex relations but yet won't accept the label put on that behavior. It's no different than how some crminals are. Some people feel that if they only break the law once, they aren't criminals vs. the person who breaks the law several times. Point though is that the definition of criminal or the definition of what it means to be something, doesn't change even if the environment does. The definition of what it means to be gay doesn't change just b/c the environment or mindset of the invidivuals in it change. But for some people, if the environment they are in is the ONLY reason they are doing something, they hate the label. If you're a man & you sleep with a man, you're gay. Whether you liked it or not doesn't matter. The definition of what it means to be gay stays the same.

@USC - good points.

i have a elder lesbian friend who takes issue with the notion that her normal isn't mainstream. for example, she stated that people take for granted the concept of having pictures of family on your desk at work. that heteros can have pictures of their spouse/mate...of their children and nothing is thought of it. but if she were to do the same, not only would it be controversial (depending on her occupation/location), but she could face some form of discrimination as a result of it.

or that a hetero couple can embrace/kiss in public and there are no stares or threats of violence. a gay/les couple expressing their affection openly can potentially have disastrous consequences. or it couldn't...all depends.

her points at the time resonated loudly with me as a minority, as a woman, as someone who dates interracially. and where one can not change the mindsets of the masses, there has to come a point where there's a new norm...right? i mean, black folks no longer have to get off the sidewalk when a white person passes. in fact, our generation can't even fathom it. i wonder what it as like for my grandparents generation as the tides slowly changed.

i dunno if i just asked a question. i'm waiting on desert and can't think straight.

I don't have a problem with men or women that are gay. BUT, I do have a problem with the deception someone engages in as a way of hiding the truth. And hey, that counts toward almost anything other than someone's sexuality. The problem is that while it's not always true that someone on the DL will be a greater health risk to the public, we also CANNOT ignore that any time someone is decieiving others (for whatever their own reasons are) there is always going to be some lack of disrespect geared towards why the person was decieiving people in the 1st place. So for example, if a man is truly a player & ladie's man, he might show his true colors to his boys b/c they are the least likely to judge him for it. BUT, when he gets into an environment (women, for example) where that kind of life style is NOT as acceptable, a player might decide to deceive or trick others instead of actually changing their ways all the way around. So what happens is that society ends up resenting the the idea of what a "player" is moreso than they resent the actual person who slips into that role. It's the same with men on the DL. Whereas I do agree that someone should be able to express their own sexuality, I don't agree with someone decieiving, hurting or manipulating others as their way to still do what they want to do. And sadly, it is true that some men on the DL tend to be more sexually active, but not b/c they are Aholes, but moreso b/c a man on the DL might have to sleep with 5 more women than he normally would (had he already came out of the closet) just to prove a point to others that he's not gay. And when it comes to anything involving sex, the more sexual partner and/or sexual activity someone has, the higher the chance of stds, unwanted pregnancies, etc. becoming an issue. So that's 1 of the reasons why men on the DL are cast down as the decievers or "spreaders" of negative things. While yes I understand how hard it is to face such a mean society, I also don't think it's fair that I'd have to be punished & be folled & possibly put at risk just b/c of that stereotype either.

Again, as I stated before, I think it's the stigma that's made this situation (DL) so much worse in some peoples eyes. Specifically the health situations as some have stated, because they (the men) are not being honest with themselves or others, and as I said before, I think these men (in the long run) would have better relationships as a whole if they didn't feel/need to have these whole different lives. I will say this, I don't know any women (only using the ones I know in this statement), that would go out with a man who stated that he had/does date men in the past/present. On the flip side, I know a lot of men who have dated women who openly admitted they had prior relationships with women, and these women made no apologies or excuses for it. Just food for thought...

lol @ TOC

LOL @ "benchwarmer!"
Maybe he's "Just Not That In To Her?" Who knows, it does sound like an...odd arrangement, but who am I—? Perhaps they are getting some other needs met by one another...

@TOC - how long has this been going on? i mean the sleeping in the same bed thing?

are they officially dating?

does he have his own place/apt/home?

does he have a job?

Well TasteofChaos, you can tell your friend that if it's any consolation, their relationship sounds like about the way 75% of marriages are - see, she's married and didn't even know it! Sleeping in the same bed; no sex; falling asleep during a BJ ... yep, sounds like marriage to me! LMAO!

lmao 🙂

If I were gay, I'd never be the bitch.

NEVA! lol

Anal sex is just too f**king painful to think about, for me. Even porn with anal in it is getting switched the f**k off by me.

More power to gays, though.

wow