Ignorance

What about people living in remote parts of the world, like an island in the Pacific, or something; and they've never even heard of God. They have absolutely no clue that there might be a higher power out there.

What about them? Go directly to hell?

What about them? Go directly to hell?

ofcourse not... your not condemned for what you know not.... 'where much is given much is required'.... nothing is expected of them for they know not of God... but ya they do have common sense so they shouldnt kill and all.. if u know what i mean....

The Bible says that Jesus is the only way. It doesn't say that if you don't know about God, then you are exempt.

Jesus says that through him is the only way to the father . . period.

>What about them? Go directly to hell?

Yup. Don't make sense does it? LOL. Of course, knowledgeable christians will tell you that it ain't over till it's over and at the great judgement, god may be more merciful than we imagine. But there's no proof of that in the bible is there?

That's why kids are suppose to be baptisted, isn't it? So, that if they die they won't go to hell because they are too young to comprehend god and the christianing saves their soul.

No sense at all . . that is, if you believe that the bible is word.

Personally, I think that the reason why the bible doesn't make sense and there are so many contrictions, is because it was put on this planet by "them" in an attempt to keep us as oblivious as possible as to who really put us here.

God isn't real. The Bible isn't real. If we believe in God, the way that the bible tells us, then we would think it sacreligious to believe that they exist.

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
" Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, son."

"Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All those terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them? "

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Him? "

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."
The Christian sits...Defeated(?).

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you if that's okay. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies, frowning. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes.

The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.

The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.

We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.

We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.

Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.

If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains; "that for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.

Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of

Sounds like a seriously stupid class.

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids you can buy, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.

"Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?

The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's observable science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. What you call "science" too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "No sir, I mean-Your view of science is flawed. To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.

Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life and that animals gave birth to children of other kinds!.

Young man, the professor began tersely, I believe that science will eventually....

"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."

There follows a long pause as the Professor stares the young Christian down without a word.


"And sir!, the student went on. Don't You create failure?! I mean, you set a standard for passing this class, sir and those who don't meet it, fail! Isn't that right? So by setting a standard and utilizing your previously expressed philosophy--you create failure! Professor, I mean has anybody ever flunked this class"?

"I may well be looking at such a someone right now", the Professor snarled!

"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"

No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever.

Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.

(source: unknown.)

Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not religious myself but I won't condemn anything unless I seriously learn and found that it's flawed. Without seriously learn it and only pick bits of pieces then goes on condemning it, will only show your ignorance. Miracle does exists but there's no logic to explain it. Although I agree that some religion system is absurd but that doesn't mean all of them are bad. We all have brain, why don't we take the positive point of it and discard the negative.

Do you know that there's no such thing that if you are baptised then you will go to heaven? There are so many religions in this world, some of them will contradict each other.

Exactly.

yes please read before you call someone ignorant,

Message posted by: Shaka2 on 10/18/2006 11:18:34 AM ip: xxx.xxx.xxx.174

P-Angel, the irony of the story is that youre a victim of ignorance too..(judging from what you posted)


Shaka, what you fail to understand is that this is a question, not a conclusion. From my perspective, if a person thinks that a thought that's intended to provoke the mind into thinking about what an outcome might mean, is taken as gospel . . that's ignorance because the mind is being closed into internalizing one possible end.

If your gonna talk to me, be real. You saying this has everything to do with a row from months ago and not this topic at all. If you can't be real, don't talk to me. Talk about ignorance . . like I wouldn't be able to fathom this concept of mis-directing angst because you didn't find victory in a different battle?

lol

Blessed is the ignoramus Old Jake for he saw the ignis fatuus thought it was GOD fell on his face and worshiped it.
kind of like the agonistic with dylexia he did not believe in DOG.

Well well...

According to Talmud...only Jews going to paradise.. the rest of the humanity( the goyim) goes to hell anyway..!

What do you care..??

And what about creatures from the other dimensions... or outer space in this matter?. Are they going to paradise too..??

Paradise or hell does not exist unless we want it that way

-----What about them? Go directly to hell?
No they are born again since they had no idea that if tried they could make it all the way to heaven or hell. 😉

That was brilliant, thelibran . . think I might have to chew on that for awhile. It makes tons of sense. I know for a fact that I've had 4 lives, already . . how many more than that, I've not been able to see. Wonder over and over again how reincarnation relates to this.

Or, maybe we've been in hell all these lives, waiting for one that's heaven sent.
Or, visa versa, maybe this is heaven we're living in and the devil reincarnates us while we're trying to sit in purgatory, trying to turn us to the dark side.

Maybe this life we're living in now, is purgatory.

I bet those folks you gave as an example know "G" better than so many "others".

I was being sarcastic infact. 😢

I dont buy the religion thingy. and its quite obvious that human beings consider God as another human being who runs a democratic system. None of the current concepts does make any sense. You cannot find what you want by following some book.

lol,

sarcasm is good, especially when dealing with religion . . what else can one do, for it's a complete contridiction within itself.

"And what about creatures from the other dimensions... or outer space in this matter?. Are they going to paradise too..??"

That's a good question . . what about them?

I do paranormal photography, Q, and I have a photo which contains many spirits, one of them is alien . . where is this being going to go? Here it was, lingering with spirits of our kind . . is there a paradise for them, too?

I admit, I struggle with the idea of god, and the bible. To me, all I have is my determination, and my belief in myself. I cannot merely let things go and let god, becuase I think that's simple irresponsibility. Honestly, I don't find comfort in the idea of god or these things, becuase I believe that someone's optimism/naivety comes at the detriment and the labor of someone else; optimism is a failure to look at life for what it is; that's why it must be looked at so favorably because without this optimism you'd UNDOUBTEDLY crumble. That's not to say that god in my opinion is non-existent, or is a waste of time; perhaps he's shown himself to the 'worthy' and those he deems as 'special and significant' I'm just not of mind enough to believe in anything beyond struggle, strife, and crisis, and amends and growth on the part that is us. Perhaps it's to my own detriment, and fault for not understanding, or refusing to understand, but it is my choice....Faith is important, and without it, you'll feel like life has no purpose beyond the mundane, and you'll hate every minute of it.....that's why I want to believe, that's why I NEED to believe; because This life is boring, and lacks any zest/vive for me, it's become the 'daily grind' having chats like this does my mind good. gets out all the fustrations I have.

SHABOOM
says when we die we go to the great marbel shithouse in the sky or the out house down below.

hey, interesting the paranormal photography and all, P-Angel; i've always wanted to get into some kind electronic voice phenomenon (EVP) ..voice/messages from beyond that can't be detected by the human ear alone, but only on certain recording devices. Spirits are much attracted to our everyday electronic world, and have the ability to manipulate and affect; thus their attempts to communicate with us..

As for a God, he exists to give me comfort in knowing that there is another existence/dimension beyond this one. That we arn't just skin/bones, teeth and dna. In between that, much like VE stated; it's the real life of the living and day to day responsibilities one has to focus on; as faith is already built-in, part of my psyche, my subconscious. Also a faith and belief in the certain, rare unexplained mysteries of life on earth, that can't always be explained by mere science alone..*i feel, our existence is both a pragmatic and mystical one.. 'two worlds different, yet parallel to each other..

Hi mystic .. I'd forgotten about this thread, started it a long time ago, back when I didn't have the knowledge I have now about the universe, greater & lessor Gods. It seems funny to me now to even read this .. it suggests that, lol, nevermind.

I have a new computer, so hopefully, I'll be able to figure out how to post pics. When I do, I'll come in here and put a pic up that is amazing .. I've counted over 12 ghosts in this one pic. Spirit photography is awesome and ghosts LOVE to be photographed. I have pics, like this one I was talking about, where they are actually POSING for the camera. Once you start doing this regularly and you get a lot of ghost pics, this awareness that washes over you is really enlightening .. they pose for thier pic being taken .. isn't that just mind boggling?

They KNOW ..............

Sounds fascinating P-Angel; that would be 'mind-boggling to see in a pic!! *They do KNOW, indeed..

What about them? Go directly to hell?

The bible explains this though I'm not sure of the verse

But I know for a FACT that if you absolutely have no clue about God, thats something you can't help and therefore are considered blameless before him

But if you have even a slightest hint about Him, and decide not to pursue him at all your pretty much asking for a one way ticket to Hell

My views have completely changed since I started this thread. At the time there were many others, similiar kinds of questions posted, for I was on a journey to see if I wanted to find God, or not ... NOT.

Though, I'm sure he's there .. he's not for me. My spirit belongs to a higher power than the Creator God.

But, thanks for pulling this up and answering, for perhaps there are others who might be asking these same questions and need some answers.

Hope you find what you're looking for also 🙂

FT .. I see what God means to other people, and these other people would hand over their own personal power for another to decide their destiny for them .. and this is where I fail be obediant to this God. Within us all is The Higher Power, that can transcend beyond fear that is within mankind who hand thier souls over to another at his discretion.

Living in fear isn't something my intellect will permit me to do. Furthmore, I find that people who follow this God, don't hold themselves accountible for their life.

If something bad happens .. they hold no responsibility for their actions and say that God meant for it to happen, they will pray to him to wash themselves of any wrong-doing .. yet, never face within themselves that they have an area to work on. If God means for them to be better, then they will .. if God means for them to always suffer, then they will.

If something good happens .. they don't look at themselves for their own accomplishments, for God gave this to them. How can one suceed if they don't find their own self-worth for what gifts they have, if this goodness was just bestowed upon them? They can't .. they have to be humbled, for it wasn't something they worked for, they accomplished, rather, just given to them for being a good lamb.

To me .. the belief in God retards our spiritual growth, for it's given to an entity, and then any further enlightenment is halted. Furthermore, it would appear to me that it is because of this mind-set that has been instilled within mankind, whether they are born again or not, that makes us blind to our own actions in any type of relationship with another .. and causes us to find ourselves faultless for our actions. This belief system has been programmed within us that no matter what we do, all is forgiven, so we therefore cannot find within ourselves any accountibility. This would go for everything .. intimate, family, professional, friendships .. we all can see how other people do so, so wrong in their life .. yet, are blind to ourselves and how our actions, our selfishness, our errors .. are a creation of our own consciousness that has been programmed for ignorance to have the power within the self to be aware that we are both the creator and the solution of our own path in life.

So, in essence .. if we screw up, we pass the buck

Anyway .. just posted this so you would know my understanding for the purpose of your god, and how I percieve the dangers of growth as a person.