Sidereal vs Tropical Scorps!?

This topic was created in the Scorpio forum by Greatwhite on Saturday, October 28, 2006 and has 35 replies.
Which of your scorps are true scorps--that is, Sidereal Scorps, born after around mid Nov through mid December?? Please identify yourselves so we know who the true scorps are vs the lost Librans. If you don't know WTF I'm talking about then please call a VEDIC ASTROLOGER or a WESTERN SIDEREALIST ASAP and get yourselves up to date. Certainly many of you know that popular western astrology (at least sign assigment) is philosophically and scientifcally incorrect due to precession, an astronomical phenomena. If I get lots of "whatever!!!!" in response I'll certainly be on my way to being convinced I'm reading posts by LIBRANS and not SCORPS, WHO ARE TRUTH SEEKERS!! This goes for myself as well, a sidereal aquarian, who's spent his life thinking he's a piscean. It's hard sometimes since bordering signs share planets. I have many pisces traits, but then why not, aspects don't change, only signs do. Thus all the NEPTUNE TRINES remain AND I have JUPITER IN PISCES IN THE MIDHEAVEN. But holy hell, do I ever need SPACE.
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Great to hear it!!
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Wtf? And the rest what you've said, didn't work.
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Nevermind HAFFIA ....either you get it or you don't.
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Thanks for relieving me from that burden Greatwhite.
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For what it's worth, I actually read quite a few books which hold the view that the first decan of each sign is actually the most strongly marked by that sign. Has anybody else heard of that? There are so many theories flying around! I do personally notice a difference with the first decan of scorpio (my favs) for example, and I can't say it lies in a similarity with libras...
Bluestar, it could be your Asc manifesting itself, yeah. I also read that Libra Asc gives off this very 'likeable' quality and I know a Scorp with Libra Asc who's insanely charming and likeable (Scorpios can be a bit more daunting usually). What a combo!
I think anyone would denounce their siderealisticness in those same circumstances notso07.
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Oh wow! I'm right for once, thanks antibling (yeah, somehow I feel more inclined to believe your side of the story that Greatwhite's even though, having peeked at your profile, I know you're not entirely unbiased about that Libra Asc Tongue)

'Everybodies' person' describes it well from an exterior point of view, that suits the Scorpio with Libra Asc I know perfectly. But I didn't realize it left you feeling a bit lonely too... That's sad. I'm going to go with the theory that you just haven't met the right people yet Bluestar!
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How do you work that out? I am 11th November..what does that make me..I am a scorpio..no poxy libran
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Greatwhite, do you support this theory because you can't handle being a Pisces? I can sympathise, but all this ayurvedic siderealistic supercalifragilistic talk sounds like typical piscean denial to me, like, an attempt at escapism Tongue
WESTERN SIDEREALIST conjured up this weird image of an as yet unmade Clint Eastwood movie to me. I don't know whether or not to thank you for that.
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"ayurvedic siderealistic supercalifragilistic"
Did he just cursed at me?
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TEA....well if it's ESCAPISM then you'd have to apply that same theory to anyone who supports VEDIC astrology.....millions.....and I assume I don't have to tell you that they're NOT ALL PISCEANS....DUH!! By your suggestion, anyone who supports sidereal astrology "can't handle" being the sign they are. Maybe those who support it are simply more interested in the scientific, historical and philosophical accuracy of our art than the average joe, who, like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, finds it easier to not investigate anything and except popular non sense without skepticism. As for my being PISCES VERSUS AQUARIUS, what makes you think I like AQUARIUS more than PISCES!!!!??????????? Frankly, I'd rather stay a fish!!! To my thinking, pisces has everything the aqua has and lots more, that is, the added dimension of instinct and intuition of a high order. I have no reason to think being born in the final sign doesn't offer some great edge---for those who seize it. It's in aquarius, leo's natural opposite, that the sun is said to be in detriment, not in pisces!!! But , even on that, I have my own views as I see LEO as actually being the least confident (even though the sun rules this sign) as clearly they have so much to prove. Pisces as an archetype is actually very internally guided although those thus ruled may nod in agreement as arguing is likely to seem a waste of energy. This really has less to do with fear and more to do with efficiency as most I've observed will often listen to everything a person says without retort then turn around and do precisely as they damn well please.
TEA...perhaps it's you who's in denial.....you've likely vested so much in being a scorp that you cannot even concieve of being a libra. But many of your planets may still be in scorp and that's what makes it all rather complex. For those interested, you can check out your sidereal chart at www.astro.com by using the appropriate selections there. Essentially, it's your western chart minus about 25 degrees. This means that only about 25 % of folks are the sun sign they think they are. Have fun!
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I should also add the Western's Astrology being "wrong" isn't a theory at all but a well known set of "facts" available to anyone with the intellectual vigor to research astrology's beginnings for him/herself.

Much can be explained away, as TEA and BLUESTAR point out, by the interchange of nearby signs. My mom was a good example. Tropically, she had SUN MARS VENUS AND MERCURY in SCORPIO and you would have been hard pressed to convince me my mom was a LIBRAN prior to my more serious study of astrology. But, she still had MARS VENUS AND MERCURY in SCORP either way. And of course, anyone with these 3 personal planets in scorpio has a powerful shot of the 8th sign, nevermind their sun sign! But regardless of interpretive complexity on the personal level, much of astrology's evolution from ancient times is well known enough to make certain declarations about a given astro system's accuracy with regards to astrology's origin. This is why siderealists can say what they say and back it up with history, science and art and it's also why tropicalists can only make silly excuses. know, however, that aspects DON'T change and they are the real juice of interpretation anyway!!!! Sun conjunct venus, for example, reflects great vanity, well not afflicted, regardless of sign, regardless of system used. Well, folks, I have the twins ascending in both approaches and we mercury ruled take little at face value (especially when pluto opposes mercury) and rarely stop at one paragraph. So then may the true eagles among you continue to soar and fill your bellies with worms and rodents and monkeys and may the true librans among you find peace in being, uh, peaceful, icky-sugary and, strangely, argumentative!!
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You may want to get your facts right before jumping on whichever bandwagon you feel like jumping on. That sounds very pisceslike to me, and the reason I feel entitled to say this is because I'm a pisces myself. Not a scorpio or a libra who thinks they're a scorpio. Not even a sidereal piscean/aquarian either, if I follow your theory. Yup, I'm one of those that have, in your own words, "everything the aqua has and lots more, that is, the added dimension of instinct and intuition of a high order". Lovely thing to say, although I don't personally see myself as superior to Aquas, but thanks nevertheless smile

"Much can be explained away, as TEA and BLUESTAR point out, by the interchange of nearby signs."
I'll let Bluestar speak for herself, but I was speaking about decans, and in a way that explicitly went contrary to what you were saying. I think it a little dishonest of you to recuperate what I've said to make it fit your way of thought however suits you best. I am not vehemently against ayurvedic astrology, I mean if I'm here digging something like astrology, I'd be hard put to it to say people who like ayurvedic astrology are idiots. But the way you go about it doesn't make me want to explore it, that's for sure. You remind me of people from this sect that keep trying to shove their propaganda down my throat. It's not their theory I resent (although I do think it isn't very nice of them to keep saying I'll burn in hell in a lot of suffering for all of eternity if I don't join), it's the aggressive way they have of imposing their beliefs upon others.
I'm sorry if I hurt your (obviously strong) feelings about ayurvedic astro, but dont'take it to heart so much Greatwhite. I mean, I reread my previous posts and, sure, they were a little silly, but there wasn't much to ponder in there!
Also, are you dissing Librans at the end there? Or was that just meant for me? Tongue
Sending you some icky-sugar and peace in a ribboned box (with hearts printed on it)
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"I mean, I re-read my previous posts and, sure, they were a little silly, but there wasn't much to ponder in there!"

Well, Tea, thanx for that admission. Cleary, with that, you've made my job much simpler!!! But wouldn't the Pisces Board be a better place for silliness and saying things which contain nothing to ponder, especially per the writer's own admission?? Just kidding, I can be a smart ass too! But getting people to think out of the box is what I do---or try to do---best. LOL
Anyway, I am passionate about astrology, you're correct AT LEAST in that regard. I have studied both systems rather intensively over the years although I wouldn't say I'm an expert. For me, experience is the best proving ground. "Read much, but look around even more" might be my motto. Obviously, both systems have, in their way, withstood the test of time and are highly useful. For myself, using that system which aligns more closely with astrology's origins and with astronomy is a huge added benefit. The whys and wherefores of that are complex and not for here, at least I think not. Suffice it to say that the eastern approach makes more intellectual sense to me. "Feelings", strictly speaking, have little to do with it. Frankly I have no real stake in being any sign or another. When I look at charts I mostly look at aspects to illuminate the chart owner for me, not signs. It's unfortunate for you if you see others' viewpoints as oppressive and ego-threatening, expressed with passion or not. The point in my post on this subject is just to get people to think about the different systems and start reading up and looking around, if they've known nothing of it heretonow.
As for you're being a FISH and not a SCORP, my bad, but the spirit of my point remains unchanged despite the specifics being off base. My comments about PISCES should not be constued as "lovely" either....they are based on observation of people in general and not on any desire to make any FISH feel complimented.
Finally, as to Librans!!?? Well, let's mix this up a bit. YOU tell ME!
Swim well and long, Fish-being, and DO watch out for SHARKS!
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I think my sideral is also Pisces.
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I've read and heard so much more about the theory that Tea mentioned (first decan-ites being posessing the true essence of the sign), and very little about what you're going on about, Greatwhite. I'll have to look into that...
Wouldn't it be funny if we were ALL wrong?
smile
Because, you know, astrology itself is a much-disputed theory...which knocks yours out of the water just as quickly as you'd like to squash the traditional theory you dispute.
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The first decan theory strikes me as extremely odd, and it seems it doesn't really fit the cusps theory, as the cusps theory asserts that people that are born close to the "starting/ending point" of a specific sun-sign will have some of it's characteristics, and some of the characteristics of the previous/next sun-sign, so following this logic the people who possess the qualities of their sun-sign in the "purest" manner are those who are born in the second decan-those who are affected the least by other sun-signs, and since this theory is pretty widely accepted I take the first decan theory with a grain of salt.
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So do I. Agreed. (But really all theories should be taken with a grain of salt, since they're unproven)
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Yes, I meant more than usual.Tongue
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Yes...the two zodiacs can be debated ad infinitum, this is why I focus less on signs and more on planetary aspects, for chart analysis. Western astrology has many positives, not the least of which is its focus on "personality". Eastern astrology is far more predicative in nature and focuses less on psychology. I a have found that what works best for myself is applying the west's psychological theories to the eastern system's zodiac, since I'm more interested in human potential than event prediction. Actually, guys, the plot can thicken even more here as while the eastern zodiac is closer to astronomical constellations than the west's is, even IT is not completely in scyn with the astronomer's zodiacal divisions as technically there are 13 signs and they're all UNEVEN, not neatly spaced 30 degree sectors. So...while I stated in an earlier post that many of you scorps may in fact be librans, I further suggest some more of you are born under OPHIUCUS, which is between scorp and sag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL Happy Halloween
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PREDICATIVE=PREDICTIVE
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My brain just exploded smile
But it was all very entertaining and interesting smile
Happy Halloween!
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If I never hear the words planetary alignment ever again it will be too soon..
I am bamboozled with all this stuff..I am scorpio thats all that matters..I don't care about anything else..
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And oh...
Happy Halloweeeeeeeeeen..
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Speaking of PANETARY ALIGNMENTS, MISSMORALS, I once went travelling through time and space on www.astro.com, erecting charts for times both distant past and distant future and found a time (I think in 2480 but not 100% sure)that all the planets are aligned in tropical scorpio. In my view, this time shall signify the end of this message board and the end the world as well! Well, I have some business will swim on for now. Will any of you scorps be getting in touch with your "inner prostitute" by dressing up like hookers tonight for trick or treat?? Have a blast.
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PANETARY=PLANETARY BIG FINGERS + LITTLE KEYS+LOTS OF F-CK UPS
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Um, according to the Sidereal, I'm a Libra. But if I am indeed a Libra, I act much more like a Scorpio. I like to have lots of privacy, I'm not so great at expressing myself.
But I have a Libra ascendant.
Ahh, who knows. Call me a Libra if you want, but if you change the name, does that really change anything?
to clarify, case in point:
To quote Shakespear--
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
A thing is what it is, not what it is called.
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How do you do this sidereal thing?..I haven't paid any attention
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Missmorals......please pay attention in the future...LOL....but since you've got morals I'll say it again. WWW.ASTRO.COM can produce a sidereal chart. Erect your chart as normal then click on extended chart selection. Once on that page, go to drop down box at middle-right (it says change only if you're an expert) and drop down and select one of the 2 sidereal options (I use Fagan/Bradley). Effectively, this is you're current chart minus about 25 degress from all the planets positions. You can then compare what's changes signs and what may not. This is all mental masturbation, of course, but then what subject isn't which can be neither proved nor disproved. Have a blast, Miss Morals, and whoever else reads in. Send questions if you want and I'll help where I can.
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Kunoichi.....this feature on www.astro.com is FREE. I use this site almost every day. TRY THIS:
-GO TO WWW.ASTRO.COM
-ONCE ON HOMEPAGE, CLICK ON "FREE HOROSCOPES" AT TOP OF PAGE.
-ON THIS PAGE, CLICK ON "CHART,DRAWING, ASCENDANT".
-NOW ENTER YOUR DATA CAREFULLY, HIT "GO"
-YOUR CHART COMES UP, DEFAULT style IS TROPICAL USING PLACIDUS HOUSE STRUCTURE
-NOW THAT YOUR BIRTH DATA IS ENTERED, CLICK ON "FREE HOROSCOPES" AGAIN AT TOP OF PAGE.
-ONCE THE NEXT PAGE COMES UP, CLICK ON "EXTENDED CHART SELECTION" INSTEAD OF "CHART DRAWING, ASCENDANT"
-NOW, ON THIS PAGE YOU CAN MODIFY LOTS OF STUFF, INCLUDING style , ADD ASTEROIDS, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. AT RIGHT MIDDLE OF THIS PAGE YOU'LL SEE DROP DOWN BOX FOR ZODIAC (SAYS EXPERTS ONLY...LOL). DROP DOWN AND SELECT ONE OF THE SIDEREAL CHARTS, I USE THE FAGAN/BRADLEY. THEN CLICK "GO" OR WHATEVER THE BUTTON IS CALLED THERE. YOUR SIDEREAL CHART SHOULD THEN COME UP. REMEMBER THOUGH THIS CHART WILL BE AN EASTERN CHART USING WESTERN HOUSE SYSTEMS BUT IT WILL AT LEAST SHOW YOU THE DIFFERENCES IN PLANETS IN SIGNS FOR YOU TO MAKE COMPARISONS. TO GET A TRUE-TO-FORM EASTERN OR VEDIC CHART, YOU'D HAVE TO ALSO MODIFY THE HOUSE STRUCTURE BUT MORE ON THAT LATER. IN TRUE VEDIC CHARTS ALL HOUSES ARE EQUAL..THE COMPLEX HOUSES USED HERE IN THE WEST ARE NOT USED. YOUR SIDEREAL CHART WILL, HOWEVER, SHOW YOUR "NEW" ASCENDANT DEGREE. I HOPE THIS HELPS.
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Apparantly I am a Libra with a libra ascendant...
What does this prove anyway...
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MISSMORALS-----in your sidereal chart with libra sun and ascendant how many of your scorp planets remain in scorp? Per your own profile you have venus in sag tropically. So...if you were to consider yourself a sidereal libran you'd have, at very least, sun in libra with the ruler venus in scorp plus whatever else might remain in scorp. My point here is that you may justifiably feel you have many so-called scorp traits owing to your tropical chart and that this fact may remain valid even in your sidereal chart whether your sun sign is scorp or libra. You have to look at the whole chart. If you're a 1978 scorp then you may have a bunch of planets in scorp and many of these may remain even after adjustment. If so, you'd still be strongly influenced by the 8th sign. People put lots of emphasis on their sun signs, partly because it's an easy way to label people which the average Joe can understand....most folk know at least their sun sign.....but sun signs mean VERY LITTLE taken alone or taken out of total chart context.
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Its a lot different than my current chart..Venus is still in Sag..
EG: LOL..
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Lol..and my Scorp friend is also sun in Libra, moon in Capricorn and Ascendant Virgo..
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But I am not born mid november..early part..does that apply..
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