Posted by Hypnotoad
You have to eat your vegetables before you can go on dxp.
Posted by CoffeeAndCream
Your Aries moon talking.
Posted by PinsAndNeedles
Probably has Leo in them (alot of Virgos do).
And no. Everyone's doing a fabulous job destroying themselves. 😈
>🙂
My point was that you told me that I'm an Aries moon as if I didn't already know that.Posted by CoffeeAndCreamPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Really??? I didn't know!
You checked me out, didn't you?Posted by CoffeeAndCream
Your Aries moon talking.
why do you have it on your signature line above your profile picclick to expand
Posted by fyrephish
I think it's a matter of perspective. Virgo women are refined, thinking things through on a granular level and teasing out what won't work. But this is for everything that they do, all of the time. It's innate and can also be exhaustive. So when speaking, what comes across is the simplified version which is short and to the point. It's with the purpose of fulfilling a goal, no emotional thought involved. So for people who may not operate in the same space, this can come across as cold, detached and mean. The reality is that Virgo women are very loving, caring people, but it's shown in ways that are not conventionally associated with love, affection, and intimacy. This is why I think Virgo women are seen as bossy. We just need the thing to get done.Period. I'm a Virgo moon btw.
>
I seem reactive and immature? Look who's back? You. Sounds like you described yourself.
And you'll be back too....after you bend over and eat your own nuts.
I'll wait....Posted by CoffeeAndCreamPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
🙂
My point was that you told me that I'm an Aries moon as if I didn't already know that.Posted by CoffeeAndCreamPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Really??? I didn't know!
You checked me out, didn't you?Posted by CoffeeAndCream
Your Aries moon talking.
why do you have it on your signature line above your profile pic
You don't sound like a boss you sound emotionally immature and reactive.
Eat these here nuts.
xoxoLeo moonclick to expand
Posted by MadTwins80
I go swimming with a virgo and I just like swimming I don't care if I'm good at it or not but every single time she advises me on how to improve my stroke 😅 She can't seem to comprehend that I might be happy just swimming along without trying to "perfect" my swimming style
This is what I think eludes virgos . You're trying to help but sometimes we just want to do things our own inefficient way because it's life and you don't get medals for being perfect . We don't care about being perfect 😄
Posted by MadTwins80
I go swimming with a virgo and I just like swimming I don't care if I'm good at it or not but every single time she advises me on how to improve my stroke 😅 She can't seem to comprehend that I might be happy just swimming along without trying to "perfect" my swimming style
This is what I think eludes virgos . You're trying to help but sometimes we just want to do things our own inefficient way because it's life and you don't get medals for being perfect . We don't care about being perfect 😄
Posted by GODZ
anybody can be a boss
>I dont want to intervene. I wash my hands of it because I do understand how its not that serious to be critical.Posted by MadTwins80Posted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I'm aware that I've given unsolicited advice. But I've learned from that.....and sometimes to a fault because I tend to put up with the one that I care about becoming complacent.Posted by MadTwins80
I go swimming with a virgo and I just like swimming I don't care if I'm good at it or not but every single time she advises me on how to improve my stroke 😅 She can't seem to comprehend that I might be happy just swimming along without trying to "perfect" my swimming style
This is what I think eludes virgos . You're trying to help but sometimes we just want to do things our own inefficient way because it's life and you don't get medals for being perfect . We don't care about being perfect 😄
It must be difficult. Like watching someone cook badly and you really want to intervene but you know they might get annoyed if you do soclick to expand
Posted by fyrephishSorry but the tone and the delivery matters more than the good intention plus people cannot read your thoughts so thry dont know your reasoning, no you are not seen as bossy as you say if you talk bossy you are mean and bossy.
I think it's a matter of perspective. Virgo women are refined, thinking things through on a granular level and teasing out what won't work. But this is for everything that they do, all of the time. It's innate and can also be exhaustive. So when speaking, what comes across is the simplified version which is short and to the point. It's with the purpose of fulfilling a goal, no emotional thought involved. So for people who may not operate in the same space, this can come across as cold, detached and mean. The reality is that Virgo women are very loving, caring people, but it's shown in ways that are not conventionally associated with love, affection, and intimacy. This is why I think Virgo women are seen as bossy. We just need the thing to get done.Period. I'm a Virgo moon btw.
>
LoL. I like you.
I might get sad about aspects of MY life that don't turn out how I'd hope. Strong MIGHT. I'll just try again.Posted by MadTwins80Posted by PlanetMercuryGirl
And you're right. I over-analyze. Its tiring. So I eventually let it go. Just do what you do.It sounds like you're really sad about itclick to expand
>
So Virgos talk down? Is that what you're saying in short?
Things have to get heated for me to talk down to someone. But that can be anyone.Posted by ParkourlerPosted by fyrephish
I think it's a matter of perspective. Virgo women are refined, thinking things through on a granular level and teasing out what won't work. But this is for everything that they do, all of the time. It's innate and can also be exhaustive. So when speaking, what comes across is the simplified version which is short and to the point. It's with the purpose of fulfilling a goal, no emotional thought involved. So for people who may not operate in the same space, this can come across as cold, detached and mean. The reality is that Virgo women are very loving, caring people, but it's shown in ways that are not conventionally associated with love, affection, and intimacy. This is why I think Virgo women are seen as bossy. We just need the thing to get done.Period. I'm a Virgo moon btw.
Sorry but the tone and the delivery matters more than the good intention plus people cannot read your thoughts so thry dont know your reasoning, no you are not seen as bossy as you say if you talk bossy you are mean and bossy.
And if you took the time to talk to people about your reasoning they might disagree with you on what the dedired result is. And expecting that people want or should want your result is presumptous and overbearing not caring. And therefore telling people whatthe rught goal Iis how they fuck and what to do to acvomplish YOUR DEsIRED OUTCOME in a concise is bossy and mean. Own your bad sides dont explain it away.click to expand
>
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.click to expand
Posted by PlanetMercuryGirl*I usually couldn't care less*
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
hat couldn't care less means but (shrugs)Posted by stillstillwaterPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
*I usually couldn't care less*
I guess your way is not the best all the time, huh....click to expand
>
That depends. If I'm well versed on something and I see someone at a point of their own demise then yes.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.
Your way is not the best and most logical.click to expand
>
Will you dance with me?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
That depends. If I'm well versed on something and I see someone at a point of their own demise then yes.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.
Your way is not the best and most logical.
What are you even talking about? Mental health?click to expand
>Hahahaha!Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Will you dance with me?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
That depends. If I'm well versed on something and I see someone at a point of their own demise then yes.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.
Your way is not the best and most logical.
What are you even talking about? Mental health?
🤔click to expand
Posted by LostinmyMind11
Work wise...kinda sorta. Just depends on what's going on. Ive trained people to do things the way I do them but at their own pace and let them know they can tweak things to their style . I want people to succeed but also know that my exact way might not be for everyone but I'd still like to see similarities only so that we are all on the sameish page.
There have also been times where I felt someone couldn't do something and it would be more of a hassle to clean up the mess later and so I would just do it myself whether or not my plate was already full.
>
You're being controlling.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Hahahaha!Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Will you dance with me?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
That depends. If I'm well versed on something and I see someone at a point of their own demise then yes.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.
Your way is not the best and most logical.
What are you even talking about? Mental health?
🤔
Eat your vegetables.click to expand
Posted by PlanetMercuryGirlPeople tend not to care for us for a multitude of reasons...it is what it is tho 🤷🏼♀️
Thumbs up. Virgos are really nice and flexible people. I think that when speaking of a Virgo some people point out the negative.Posted by LostinmyMind11
Work wise...kinda sorta. Just depends on what's going on. Ive trained people to do things the way I do them but at their own pace and let them know they can tweak things to their style . I want people to succeed but also know that my exact way might not be for everyone but I'd still like to see similarities only so that we are all on the sameish page.
There have also been times where I felt someone couldn't do something and it would be more of a hassle to clean up the mess later and so I would just do it myself whether or not my plate was already full.click to expand
Posted by PinsAndNeedlesPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Again....VIRGO women do you think that you're controlling? Thats what I initially wanted to know. How do you see yourself?
Inside a bottle right now. 😎 ✌🏻
But I meant it last time: I don't see myself as bossy (but I'm not at the other extreme end of being a pushover Virgo either). I control what I know I can. People are just not one of them. I'm already a handful for myself.click to expand
Posted by LostinmyMind11Posted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Thumbs up. Virgos are really nice and flexible people. I think that when speaking of a Virgo some people point out the negative.Posted by LostinmyMind11
Work wise...kinda sorta. Just depends on what's going on. Ive trained people to do things the way I do them but at their own pace and let them know they can tweak things to their style . I want people to succeed but also know that my exact way might not be for everyone but I'd still like to see similarities only so that we are all on the sameish page.
There have also been times where I felt someone couldn't do something and it would be more of a hassle to clean up the mess later and so I would just do it myself whether or not my plate was already full.
People tend not to care for us for a multitude of reasons...it is what it is tho 🤷🏼♀️click to expand
Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
You're being controlling.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Hahahaha!Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Will you dance with me?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
That depends. If I'm well versed on something and I see someone at a point of their own demise then yes.Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
No it isn't, what?Posted by HypnotoadPosted by PlanetMercuryGirl
I can get irritated if things don't go my way because my way is the best and the most logical. It's for your own good. Don't you want the best possible result?
I usually could care less. But don't ask for my opinion and then cry when you decide not to take my advice.
No it isn't.
Your way is not the best and most logical.
What are you even talking about? Mental health?
🤔
Eat your vegetables.
No I just know what's best for you.click to expand
Posted by fyrephish
"thinking things through on a granular level and teasing out what won't work. But this is for everything that they do, all of the time. It's innate and can also be exhaustive."
"The reality is that Virgo women are very loving, caring people, but it's shown in ways that are not conventionally associated with love, affection, and intimacy."
Posted by fyrephishSmh....Posted by ParkourlerPosted by fyrephish
I think it's a matter of perspective. Virgo women are refined, thinking things through on a granular level and teasing out what won't work. But this is for everything that they do, all of the time. It's innate and can also be exhaustive. So when speaking, what comes across is the simplified version which is short and to the point. It's with the purpose of fulfilling a goal, no emotional thought involved. So for people who may not operate in the same space, this can come across as cold, detached and mean. The reality is that Virgo women are very loving, caring people, but it's shown in ways that are not conventionally associated with love, affection, and intimacy. This is why I think Virgo women are seen as bossy. We just need the thing to get done.Period. I'm a Virgo moon btw.
Sorry but the tone and the delivery matters more than the good intention plus people cannot read your thoughts so thry dont know your reasoning, no you are not seen as bossy as you say if you talk bossy you are mean and bossy.
And if you took the time to talk to people about your reasoning they might disagree with you on what the dedired result is. And expecting that people want or should want your result is presumptous and overbearing not caring. And therefore telling people whatthe rught goal Iis how they fuck and what to do to acvomplish YOUR DEsIRED OUTCOME in a concise is bossy and mean. Own your bad sides dont explain it away.
Yes, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. In the most delightful way, I might add. 🧐🤭click to expand
Posted by LentoBull91Ugh you know exactly what to say 🥺![]()
They definitely can be. And a smart bull will know and let them be till their hearts content
Posted by DamnataTakes one to think she knows one.
Boss of cringe.
Posted by LentoBull91![]()
They definitely can be. And a smart bull will know and let them be till their hearts content
Posted by PlanetMercuryGirl
Again....VIRGO women do you think that you're controlling? Thats what I initially wanted to know. How do you see yourself?
Posted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
Posted by colorsI feel like people get irritated with Virgos period. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. After thinking more about this I’ve realized I control what I know that I can, and what I can’t, I can’t.Posted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.click to expand
Posted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.
It saddens me because you guys are super talented and you really do make things absolutely perfect but sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture
I had an ex- virgo friend who had a youtube channel and people loved the inherent quality of her content but she'd spend so long focussing on the little things that her views never went up because she wouldn't just do the things that would work to help her channel grow. She wouldn't compromise her perfection standards despite it working against her
I tried to explain to her that it's youtube and if you don't get someone's attention quickly and make the vid watchable for the typical online adhd sufferers then you're going to struggle
I made the mistake of trying to advise her how to "loosen up" and relax her perfection tendencies and let go of the need to take care of every single detail - all in the aim of getting more views
We are now no longer friends 😅🙄😒click to expand
Posted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.
It saddens me because you guys are super talented and you really do make things absolutely perfect but sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture
I had an ex- virgo friend who had a youtube channel and people loved the inherent quality of her content but she'd spend so long focussing on the little things that her views never went up because she wouldn't just do the things that would work to help her channel grow. She wouldn't compromise her perfection standards despite it working against her
I tried to explain to her that it's youtube and if you don't get someone's attention quickly and make the vid watchable for the typical online adhd sufferers then you're going to struggle
I made the mistake of trying to advise her how to "loosen up" and relax her perfection tendencies and let go of the need to take care of every single detail - all in the aim of getting more views
We are now no longer friends 😅🙄😒
"sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture" you are absolutely right about this. We get stuck on the details. I think it shows when there are less issues in the end product, but no one cares for perfect, sometimes it is quantity over quality. not always but in the bigger picture, like you said. Focus needs to be on what is important and not is it perfect. And yes, it is hard accepting negative feedback, even though it may not be negative, because we have already worked so hard that it feels like our efforts or sincerity is being questioned. I know I can be my own worst enemy sometimes.
It depends what it is. Sometimes perfection is absolutely called for and then you guys are the best because you really do notice every single part of the project. Carving a magnificent sculpture , for example , every single tiny detail matters
But carry that kind of attention to detail over to more mundane everyday things and it ends up becoming slightly neurotic (from a non-virgo's viewpoint)
The irony is you advise people because you want to help them do things better and we attempt to advise you because we want to see you get more rewarded for your efforts. I wouldn't tell a virgo how to do something better but I'd want to help them do things in a way that will let them get more rewarded for their work in real terms rather than just their own satisfaction of being 100% pleased that their work is faultless. That's what I mean about the big pictureclick to expand
Posted by MadTwins80Yes. Something so easy can become so complicated. Thats why I take an entire day to clean my condo. Where some can clean quickly (I call it surface cleaning) I have to move everything and get into the nooks and crannies and sterilize. As I am in the process it's irritating even to myself.Posted by colorsPosted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.
It saddens me because you guys are super talented and you really do make things absolutely perfect but sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture
I had an ex- virgo friend who had a youtube channel and people loved the inherent quality of her content but she'd spend so long focussing on the little things that her views never went up because she wouldn't just do the things that would work to help her channel grow. She wouldn't compromise her perfection standards despite it working against her
I tried to explain to her that it's youtube and if you don't get someone's attention quickly and make the vid watchable for the typical online adhd sufferers then you're going to struggle
I made the mistake of trying to advise her how to "loosen up" and relax her perfection tendencies and let go of the need to take care of every single detail - all in the aim of getting more views
We are now no longer friends 😅🙄😒click to expand
Posted by colorsThere it is.....sincerity. I love and care so deeply and everything I do is sincere. Sometimes just sitting and staring into my lovers eyes means a lot to me.Posted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.
It saddens me because you guys are super talented and you really do make things absolutely perfect but sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture
I had an ex- virgo friend who had a youtube channel and people loved the inherent quality of her content but she'd spend so long focussing on the little things that her views never went up because she wouldn't just do the things that would work to help her channel grow. She wouldn't compromise her perfection standards despite it working against her
I tried to explain to her that it's youtube and if you don't get someone's attention quickly and make the vid watchable for the typical online adhd sufferers then you're going to struggle
I made the mistake of trying to advise her how to "loosen up" and relax her perfection tendencies and let go of the need to take care of every single detail - all in the aim of getting more views
We are now no longer friends 😅🙄😒
"sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture" you are absolutely right about this. We get stuck on the details. I think it shows when there are less issues in the end product, but no one cares for perfect, sometimes it is quantity over quality. not always but in the bigger picture, like you said. Focus needs to be on what is important and not is it perfect. And yes, it is hard accepting negative feedback, even though it may not be negative, because we have already worked so hard that it feels like our efforts or sincerity is being questioned. I know I can be my own worst enemy sometimes.click to expand
Posted by MadTwins80Did your Virgo ex constantly express her sadness to you? I've never heard of sadness being a characteristic of Virgos.Posted by colorsPosted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by MadTwins80Posted by colorsPosted by Sunsetvirgo
Honestly sometimes and sometimes not. Depends.
Truthfully, people loooooveeee to give us hell for saying ANYTHING. And I’ve tried to change my delivery, my tone, my words, my expressions. Just never enough.
So for the past few months I’ve just not said anything at all and watched them all burn 😄
I feel like people get irritated with the details that virgos get into? Like my mind will start running all scenarios in my head and people who know me might already want me to stop that train of thought and just go step by step instead of all steps at once.
It saddens me because you guys are super talented and you really do make things absolutely perfect but sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture
I had an ex- virgo friend who had a youtube channel and people loved the inherent quality of her content but she'd spend so long focussing on the little things that her views never went up because she wouldn't just do the things that would work to help her channel grow. She wouldn't compromise her perfection standards despite it working against her
I tried to explain to her that it's youtube and if you don't get someone's attention quickly and make the vid watchable for the typical online adhd sufferers then you're going to struggle
I made the mistake of trying to advise her how to "loosen up" and relax her perfection tendencies and let go of the need to take care of every single detail - all in the aim of getting more views
We are now no longer friends 😅🙄😒
"sometimes you focus soooo much on all the details that you forget about the big picture" you are absolutely right about this. We get stuck on the details. I think it shows when there are less issues in the end product, but no one cares for perfect, sometimes it is quantity over quality. not always but in the bigger picture, like you said. Focus needs to be on what is important and not is it perfect. And yes, it is hard accepting negative feedback, even though it may not be negative, because we have already worked so hard that it feels like our efforts or sincerity is being questioned. I know I can be my own worst enemy sometimes.
It depends what it is. Sometimes perfection is absolutely called for and then you guys are the best because you really do notice every single part of the project. Carving a magnificent sculpture , for example , every single tiny detail matters
But carry that kind of attention to detail over to more mundane everyday things and it ends up becoming slightly neurotic (from a non-virgo's viewpoint)
The irony is you advise people because you want to help them do things better and we attempt to advise you because we want to see you get more rewarded for your efforts. I wouldn't tell a virgo how to do something better but I'd want to help them do things in a way that will let them get more rewarded for their work in real terms rather than just their own satisfaction of being 100% pleased that their work is faultless. That's what I mean about the big picture
I can tell you understand where virgos come from. Virgos value that a lot.I do get what you mean want to see get more rewarded. So I think along with losing out on the rewards, this nature also causes virgos to be taken granted of.
Yeh and that makes you really sad doesn't it? to be unappreciated?
I have spent a lot of time (and talking lol) with virgos so yeh I do get their way of thinking to a certain extent. I'm also quite a fan. I think they're generally really smart, kind, quality people. I'm sure there's some exceptions lolclick to expand