Faith & Reason - The Virgo Way
This topic was created in the Virgo forum by DyarStra?e on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 and has 13 replies.
An immature brain-dead guppy had this to say about us Virgos over on the Scorpio Board: "like pittsburgh, the virgo board is grey, full up meatheads who like their traditional routines and are fanatical about stupid meaningless shit like football and sports..." [http://www.dxpnet.com/opinion/messages.asp?id=1585927]
He's obviously referring to the threads created on our board by the non-Virgos.
Let this thread be yet another example of how wrong he is...
- - - - - -
Faith, or Reason, or Both?
Is traditional religious faith incompatible with modern reason?
We Virgos are rational, practical, and analytical people. But, can we reconcile the disparities between what we believe to be true, versus what we know to be established fact?
Most of the Virgos I know are Southerners - natives of The Bible Belt - and members of some church or other (mostly Baptist). In the few discussions we've had, I can tell that they're generally uncomfortable with the subject of faith versus facts; and I have to wonder if that's because they realize the hypocrisy of mouthing one thing on Sunday morning to turn around and engage in work that requires a dedication to the scientific method Monday through Friday. That is, when the network is down, none of us pray over the routers...
I was raised in a very conservative Protestant denomination which was openly hostile to any ideas that contradicted Holy scripture. And yet, because of the Apollo lunar missions, I was drawn to the astronomy and space science. These competing passions troubled me for many years, and I was well into my 20's before I reached a compromise between faith & reason - and that was still an uneasy balance. Now, as I approach 50, I find myself increasingly interested in the teachings of Arian Catholicism [http://www.holy-catholic.org/arian/arian-home.html], because concepts like The Trinity, Virgin Birth, and Resurrection are at odds with my Virgo reason and common sense...
So, fellow Virgos, are you a Person of Faith, or a Person of Science? Or, have you still not decided? (And don't tell me you don't think about such things, or we'll expel you from the Virgic Communion!)
You owe Prince_Pisces an apology, and you know it.
Im in the middle i really never like church even when i was little even to this day. i have no problem with the word but people in church turn me off. i was in a church were a preacher was cought cheating. and he was always preach against this i have cum to see that the most evil people are in the church. my personal belief is that if ur good person u will get to heaven
Dyr
So, fellow Virgos, are you a Person of Faith, or a Person of Science?
If you check my profile page you??ll find my motto described as:
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance.
The element of doubt is the drive behind a curios soul to search about many things which pushing (forward or backward, only time will tell) to the boundaries of science of reason and ultimately the truth (according to personal finding, knowledge, level of experiences and the depth of personal logic).
When science (as we know it) developed in the West, it thought of itself merely as a tool to explore the natural world. It did not pour scorn upon religion; indeed, scientists were overwhelmingly religious believers (as many still are). But unfortunately in modern times, however, science has given rise to 'scientism', the belief that science can answer all the questions of human existence.
This is not so.
My finding so far is about to not attempting to divide reality into two parts, "the natural world", where the rules of evidence, logic, and reason apply, and "the spiritual world", where they think they are allowed to believe anything they like on faith without having to justify their beliefs. In truth, no such division exists. There is only one reality, over which science holds absolute dominion, because science is purposefully designed to know everything that can be known about reality.
The limitations of science are pragmatic, not dogmatic. That is to say, the scientific method incorporates all methods for discovering truth that work, and discards all methods that don't work. If theology did work, it would be incorporated into science.
But of course it does not (except metaphysics, which is in early stages and yet to be developed).
If there are things which the human mind cannot comprehend, which is certainly possible, and then of course these things are beyond science. That does not mean they are within the reach of theology or of religion in general. All that faith "allows" us to do that science does not is to make ignorant, un-falsifiable, meaningless guesses.
A guess, such as "God created the universe", is not an explanation. It is just a guess, and we know from experience that guesses about the nature of reality are almost always false.
So, fellow Virgos, are you a Person of Faith, or a Person of Science?
If you check my profile page you??ll find my motto described as:
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance.
The element of doubt is the drive behind a curios soul to search about many things which pushing (forward or backward, only time will tell) to the boundaries of science of reason and ultimately the truth (according to personal finding, knowledge, level of experiences and the depth of personal logic).
When science (as we know it) developed in the West, it thought of itself merely as a tool to explore the natural world. It did not pour scorn upon religion; indeed, scientists were overwhelmingly religious believers (as many still are). But unfortunately in modern times, however, science has given rise to 'scientism', the belief that science can answer all the questions of human existence.
This is not so.
My finding so far is about to not attempting to divide reality into two parts, "the natural world", where the rules of evidence, logic, and reason apply, and "the spiritual world", where they think they are allowed to believe anything they like on faith without having to justify their beliefs. In truth, no such division exists. There is only one reality, over which science holds absolute dominion, because science is purposefully designed to know everything that can be known about reality.
The limitations of science are pragmatic, not dogmatic. That is to say, the scientific method incorporates all methods for discovering truth that work, and discards all methods that don't work. If theology did work, it would be incorporated into science.
But of course it does not (except metaphysics, which is in early stages and yet to be developed).
If there are things which the human mind cannot comprehend, which is certainly possible, and then of course these things are beyond science. That does not mean they are within the reach of theology or of religion in general. All that faith "allows" us to do that science does not is to make ignorant, un-falsifiable, meaningless guesses.
A guess, such as "God created the universe", is not an explanation. It is just a guess, and we know from experience that guesses about the nature of reality are almost always false.
Dyr
He's obviously referring to the threads created on our board by the non-Virgos
Been telling this and fought against it for ages??_ Virgo board has become TRASH CAN of NON VIRGO entities with no sense of logic and reason.
It makes me puke to see articles about why Virgos are like this and like that, it seem that everything that has been said in numerous PAGES of this board infected with ???repeating virus??.
Same questions again and again, same conclusions again and again??_ !
Sometimes I really wonder??_ why you even bother to explain thing again and again to lazy souls that don??t even try to brows the board history!
Sigh*
He's obviously referring to the threads created on our board by the non-Virgos
Been telling this and fought against it for ages??_ Virgo board has become TRASH CAN of NON VIRGO entities with no sense of logic and reason.
It makes me puke to see articles about why Virgos are like this and like that, it seem that everything that has been said in numerous PAGES of this board infected with ???repeating virus??.
Same questions again and again, same conclusions again and again??_ !
Sometimes I really wonder??_ why you even bother to explain thing again and again to lazy souls that don??t even try to brows the board history!
Sigh*
DY, thanks for the post, topic, and shared thoughts, i am still dwelling in them.
science is religion.
muahahahaaa
anyway.....It doesn't matter if there is God or not. What matters is if we need God or not.
Most of us do need God. One of the reasons being that there are a lot of things going on in our world that we cant understand and we have an inherent need to understand everything.
God, the belief, helps us go through hard times.
It is important that we dont get carried away by priests, fanatical or not, or give credence to too many religious stories and judge God or God's existence from these stories.
When we say and do good, stand by truth, honesty, kindness, have humility, be humane, we ourselves become Godly.
The more scientific the less dogmatic we are.
The constant study of human history and the latest advancements of science will broaden our thoughts.
We need to have an open mind always.
muahahahaaa
anyway.....It doesn't matter if there is God or not. What matters is if we need God or not.
Most of us do need God. One of the reasons being that there are a lot of things going on in our world that we cant understand and we have an inherent need to understand everything.
God, the belief, helps us go through hard times.
It is important that we dont get carried away by priests, fanatical or not, or give credence to too many religious stories and judge God or God's existence from these stories.
When we say and do good, stand by truth, honesty, kindness, have humility, be humane, we ourselves become Godly.
The more scientific the less dogmatic we are.
The constant study of human history and the latest advancements of science will broaden our thoughts.
We need to have an open mind always.
Perfect Gem Angel
Like I said..
If you take your time and browse carefully on history of this forum you??ll find numerous answers to you questions.
Then??_ why do you want to re-question something that has been already answered?
Key word??_Browse the forums history before you make another topic!
Fair enough.?
Like I said..
If you take your time and browse carefully on history of this forum you??ll find numerous answers to you questions.
Then??_ why do you want to re-question something that has been already answered?
Key word??_Browse the forums history before you make another topic!
Fair enough.?
Soulness
science is religion
Funny as it is but in alerting rate it has become a kind of religion!
science is religion
Funny as it is but in alerting rate it has become a kind of religion!
I am a person of logic and a devout Catholic.
I put my religion first though, to me most of it makes a lot of sense and some needs further interpretation.
I put my religion first though, to me most of it makes a lot of sense and some needs further interpretation.
satori,
Thanks for the Joseph Campbell quote! I'm a big fan of his. In fact, as a history grad student, I wrote a paper on the 19th Century Mayan rebellion in Mexico that referenced his work on the links between, myth, culture, and mythic reality (how a powerful mythic idea can directly influence reality).
I was hoping that some Virgs would address this: Can you be a devout Christian and a dedicated Scientist, and remain true to both disciplines?
Q, I appreciate your views on One Reality. But, when dealing with most people, there are still two competing camps (at least in the USA): Faith versus Science, and each seems to demand exclusive allegiance...
For me, both faith and reason are means to an end for understanding one (and only one) reality. There's more to the universe than matter, and yet roses are not red to remind us of the blood shed by Jesus (a medieval explanation!)...
In my 20's my "compromise" consisted of rendering to Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's - that is, my Soul to Christ, and my Mind to Science. But this was not completely satisfactory for me.
Now, I find myself looking frankly at both, which is why I'm abandoning some of the religious teachings of my youth, and leaning more towards Arian Christology. At the same time, I am more honest about the limitations of the scientific method, and not so quick to brush-off things that don't fit within today's scientific framework.
Cajun: I put my religion first though, to me most of it makes a lot of sense and some needs further interpretation.
I tried that approach. But for me, my Pastor's opposition to Evolution made me feel like I had to choose sides - which sucks!
So, while I acknowledge his beliefs, I disagree with his interpretation of scripture that he believes is incompatible with evolution, a 4.5 billion year old Earth, and other modern scientific concepts that are a better explanation for how the material universe works than Genesis, Chapter One...
Q`bone, my apologies. I have had entirely too much in my personal life, and I truly am sorry for my words. I actually should have said thank you for sharing.
and fair enough!
Something already answered, answer: hoping to hear what they or you, want to hear.....
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