White Lies

This topic was created in the Virgo forum by TheLadyScorpio on Tuesday, January 20, 2015 and has 46 replies.
Hello lovely Virgents and Virgals,
I have a question to pose to you lot and hopefully you may be able to shed a bit of light on this matter-
White Lies. This seems to be a common trait between the Virgos that I know (I am aware this is only a small sampling of the entire population of Virgos), be it the good or the worser one. Even the ones that are trustworthy, I see you lot use this tactic often, often over meaningless matters, or menial subjects, or even as a passive aggressive/defensive/avoidance strategy.

- Why would you choose to use white lies?
- What are your motives and/or rationale behind this?
- Are you not aware that a build up of such will eventually slowly chip away even the strongest and most loyal blind faith that is entrusted in you?
(In the least, it will may others doubt, be it valid or not because you are destroying the trust people have in you.)
- If so, why continue?

Your responses would be greatly appreciated. Big Grin
too honest for my own good
Scorpio you sure you want to let this thread continue? The last time happened it didn't go down well.
Posted by virgowithasoul
Scorpio you sure you want to let this thread continue? The last time happened it didn't go down well.


What do you mean Virgent, are you insinuating this topic have been brought up before in other threads and ended up badly?
This is by all means not an insult on Virgos (I enjoy you lot very much so), just a curious mind wants to know.
TheLadyScorpio: (can't get your post to cut & paste) you said it so well, the chipping away at the trust & love given to a Virgo). This has happened to me as well. I have Leo placements & Mars in Scorpio. My male friend has many Virgo placements & Mars in Scorpio as well. I have sadly felt my trust & love for him dwindle away, even tho' he says he loves me. It now seems to be an empty phrase, although I also still enjoy him very much! Would love to hear some input from Virgos on this
I wouldn't say that I "white lie" so much as I become extremely selective of word choice and use at times.
Oh yeah, I am extremely aware of my Virgo's "double-speak", as in "I spent the day doing "things". You know...."
Virgos, What would be a good reply to that statement? Using your famous word selection?
"Double-speak" lol.
You could reply to that in any way you want. If you're looking for answers though, knowing the way that I operate, the only thing a person could do to counter such a thing when I don't want to give up information is to deliberately ask exacting and absolute questions that don't leave wiggle room. Facing that, I would either cough it up eventually, or in a much worse scenario, walk away or resort to a bold-faced lie. Should those two come to pass it's a bad deal and the person asking would be wise to guard their trust and possibly accept that they don't want the answers they seek.
One caveat, be sparing with the inquisition. It becomes frustrating and irksome in a hurry.
I white-lie since people can't handle the truth. If people blindly have faith in me then it is their problem, not mine.
I do have standards though. I white-lie everyone but my closest friends. Notice I don't say family. Winking
All this sneakiness and deviousness sounds like sheer pain and a waste of time/effort (for all parties) over nothing particularly important. That is from my perspective or maybe I am misunderstanding something here - Does it not tire? Why bother and go through such efforts?

There are other alternatives such as, walking away, silence and so forth...no?
Help me understand, I am still not quite grasping it. Straight Face
Who is it that gauges a matter's importance?
Posted by TMV
"Double-speak" lol.
You could reply to that in any way you want. If you're looking for answers though, knowing the way that I operate, the only thing a person could do to counter such a thing when I don't want to give up information is to deliberately ask exacting and absolute questions that don't leave wiggle room. Facing that, I would either cough it up eventually, or in a much worse scenario, walk away or resort to a bold-faced lie. Should those two come to pass it's a bad deal and the person asking would be wise to guard their trust and possibly accept that they don't want the answers they seek.
One caveat, be sparing with the inquisition. It becomes frustrating and irksome in a hurry.


TMV, let me share some pondering and thoughts here:

It gets equally frustrating and irksome for others especially when they are attempting to have a straight forward and honest conversation with you lot. Sometimes I notice, when Virgos are asked questions they will quite literally take you on a round about road trip, dancing around many topics besides the one at hand. Then often it leaves the other party thinking, why can things not be simple? I am not here to play games but to have an enjoyable time with you, to spend conversational time with hopefully quality company. It sometimes pisses people off and throws their entire day into a spin after such treatment.

Yet, one cannot help but see the hypocrisy in this, because if it was the other way around. If you do not walk away, you lot would whinge and whine, stating others are wasting your time, game playing and not treating you in a serious manner.
So much effort over nothing. If you lot can have such high standards and demand respect- why can you lot not give it forth as well?

It gets old and tiresome in a hurry when others have to constantly put you lot in an interrogation unit, often merely to pull out a simple and honest conversation out of you lot. It feels like an upward battle, all the time.
You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response), but taking people for a spin is plain rude at times.
Posted by TMV
Who is it that gauges a matter's importance?



Valid question.

However, once the interrogation ends and you lot spill. Often in hindsight, you lot do agree all the white lies were over nothing of particular importance (at least most of the time). That have been my experience, and I am aware I am writing my thoughts on Virgos in broad strokes but bear with me here.
It comes across as you lot creating a mountain out of a molehill in your mentally active minds. Straight Face
Again, not here to say you lot are terrible people because most Virgos are not but it is the communication that feels stunted all the time, over this one nagging trait. It makes it really hard for others to 'reach' you.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response),


People don't use this because this answer is a defensive stance. If someone said the above to you, wouldn't that heighten your suspicious on why they refuses to answer a question? Who wants a fight like that on there hands, no thanks.
Could you honestly drop the subject and not ask again, just stop thinking about it all together? I doubt it but if you can answer yes to that.. say it, mean it then prove it.
It's a crossroads of trust. You can trust or be prepared to hear lies if a mutable feels interrogated. I know a Gem, Pisces and Virgo who share this trait.
It's usually better to let a person open up to you on their own and volunteer info versus asking information seeking questions and calling it conversation.

the only time I lie is if I feel my privacy is being invaded
Posted by shellshocker
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response),


People don't use this because this answer is a defensive stance. If someone said the above to you, wouldn't that heighten your suspicious on why they refuses to answer a question? Who wants a fight like that on there hands, no thanks.
Could you honestly drop the subject and not ask again, just stop thinking about it all together? I doubt it but if you can answer yes to that.. say it, mean it then prove it.
It's a crossroads of trust. You can trust or be prepared to hear lies if a mutable feels interrogated. I know a Gem, Pisces and Virgo who share this trait.
It's usually better to let a person open up to you on their own and volunteer info versus asking information seeking questions and calling it conversation.


click to expand


Intriguing response shellshocker, and to the highlighted question- in all honesty, my answer would be no, it would not heighten my suspicions. On the other hand when people refuse to answer and take me for a ride, that would heighten my suspicions. If someone told me: "No."... even if I do not like it, I would respect it however I find it hard to respect the roundabout rides.

To the underlined- There are no winning strategies? How could communication ever flow without feeling disjointed?

Another point, sometimes it is truly conversation and not deep nor personal ones but over daily mundane matter such as- what did you have for lunch or did you turn off the lights or was it I who left my book in the car?
Even such simple questions can be met with the same reactions. It gets slightly irritation because what harm can such normal daily questions ever do to them? It is just not efficient. Straight Face
Posted by shellshocker
the only time I lie is if I feel my privacy is being invaded



Is that not more of a Crab trait as versus a Virgoan one?
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by shellshocker
the only time I lie is if I feel my privacy is being invaded



Is that not more of a Crab trait as versus a Virgoan one?
click to expand


probably. But the way I see it is people lie for reasons... so knowing why someone lies is far more beneficial to me than getting them to conform to what I'd do or how I'd like it.
Maybe they don't care about those little things you mentioned, or having to think back about who and where the book was put is mundane and not worth their brain energy.
My Virgo assistant tells white lies, it doesn't bother me so much because they're small and fit a pattern. Made me pay attention more and now I know why she lies and when.
Posted by shellshocker
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by shellshocker
the only time I lie is if I feel my privacy is being invaded



Is that not more of a Crab trait as versus a Virgoan one?


probably. But the way I see it is people lie for reasons... so knowing why someone lies is far more beneficial to me than getting them to conform to what I'd do or how I'd like it.
Maybe they don't care about those little things you mentioned, or having to think back about who and where the book was put is mundane and not worth their brain energy.
My Virgo assistant tells white lies, it doesn't bother me so much because they're small and fit a pattern. Made me pay attention more and now I know why she lies and when.
click to expand


You may be on to something here. Perhaps it is not the white lies in itself that bother me, rather the intent behind them that is (lack of reciprocation, at times).

Could it be that their supposed roundabout ride, be their verbal mental processes being spewed out as they scramble for an answer?
Posted by shellshocker
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by shellshocker
the only time I lie is if I feel my privacy is being invaded



Is that not more of a Crab trait as versus a Virgoan one?


probably. But the way I see it is people lie for reasons... so knowing why someone lies is far more beneficial to me than getting them to conform to what I'd do or how I'd like it.
Maybe they don't care about those little things you mentioned, or having to think back about who and where the book was put is mundane and not worth their brain energy.
My Virgo assistant tells white lies, it doesn't bother me so much because they're small and fit a pattern. Made me pay attention more and now I know why she lies and when.
click to expand



In regards to the highlighted- Precisely it, sometimes others do not have the energy nor time to figure our what they are trying to say behind their white lies and double meaning words. People have other things to do, and when simple questions are asked, answering them would make it easy on all parties to get things done. Often they are yes or no questions too.

For ex. Did you turn off the stove?
Often this would be met with, matters such as- Well, you did not turn it off last time. You have always have a bad tendency to do it, remember that last time? I think I cooked breakfast on the stove, why do you ask? Did you make anything on the stove, you forgot that one time and we had the alarm go off, then the mess it created. etc. etc. The alarms are sensitive and I hate them that way, why does the landlord not do anything about it. When asked why they would not tell you? You are accusing me, why did you not check or it is not my responsibility, stop asking questions I want to eat etc.

It may be a poor example but I cannot recreate a real one off the top of my head but suffice to say, if could have been responded with a simple- Yes/No.
Posted by shellshocker
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response),


People don't use this because this answer is a defensive stance. If someone said the above to you, wouldn't that heighten your suspicious on why they refuses to answer a question? Who wants a fight like that on there hands, no thanks.
Could you honestly drop the subject and not ask again, just stop thinking about it all together? I doubt it but if you can answer yes to that.. say it, mean it then prove it.
It's a crossroads of trust. You can trust or be prepared to hear lies if a mutable feels interrogated. I know a Gem, Pisces and Virgo who share this trait.
It's usually better to let a person open up to you on their own and volunteer info versus asking information seeking questions and calling it conversation.


click to expand



In regards to the statement in bold:
True, however they would never do that for others. They would inquire, ask questions, probe until you feel interrogated and if you so as to repeat any one of their long list of questions in return. You will either be met with white lies, walls, silence or teasing/jokes. Straight Face
Frankly, it is simply reciprocating the very questions they ask- would it not be normal for a sane person to expect an answer in return?
Posted by PotHeadVirgo25
I'm not worried about what you don't wanna talk about I'm more interested in what you do wanna talk about which will lead me to what you don't wanna talk about.
I absolutely adore telling people the truth. That way you can feel my pain and my gain. If I say no or deny conversing about whatever it's either because I don't trust you with said info or it's a topic I'm still sore about or I haven't thought about it enough to have a solid opinion. I'll tell you that too. smile Just so you can get off my nut. Then we usually start debating about why I won't spew my guts which is fine because I have a few valid reasons.
My Virgo Moon & Libra Mercury will enjoy this.


To the highlighted- Purpose manipulation or purpose diversion? Still sounds a tad devious.

The issue is I adore most of them but the communication issue exasperates me and drains more energy (both mental and emotional) from me than is required.
I would gladly get off all nuts and anything besides nuts if met in turn with such a clear and straight-forward manner! Tongue

You Mercurial creatures hurt my brain, my Mars/Plutonian energy does not have the patience at times.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Frankly, it is simply reciprocating the very questions they ask- would it not be normal for a sane person to expect an answer in return?


idk, I don't know too many Virgos or understand reciprocity with communication style s. Either you have similar or you don't.
The Virgo's I do know may have asked me a lot of questions in the beginning, but I was evasive with answers or just didn't say anything at all. So... they stopped asking those questions. I don't have much fixed in me tho, I'm sure that makes a difference.
Posted by shellshocker
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Frankly, it is simply reciprocating the very questions they ask- would it not be normal for a sane person to expect an answer in return?


idk, I don't know too many Virgos or understand reciprocity with communication style s. Either you have similar or you don't.
The Virgo's I do know may have asked me a lot of questions in the beginning, but I was evasive with answers or just didn't say anything at all. So... they stopped asking those questions. I don't have much fixed in me tho, I'm sure that makes a difference.

click to expand



shellshocker- that could be, anyhow thank you for responding. At least you gave me different perspective to see this from.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response), but taking people for a spin is plain rude at times.


In all fairness could this not be said for others as well? People always have the option of not dealing with someone who uses these tactics, of walking away when they're fed up. I usually also find it rude when someone presses for answers that clearly aren't going to be given.
But I'll be frank. I give people the walk-about because I'm an ass, and when I feel threatened in some way it feels appropriate to use asshole-ish defense mechanisms. I would be a liar if I tried to claim that I haven't lead people on absurd goose chases over nothing before just for the sake of it.
*shrugs*
Call it a personality flaw.
Posted by TMV
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

You lot always have the option to say - "No." or to politely/outright "I will not answer that." or any variation of such phrases of refusal (at least it would have been a straightforward response), but taking people for a spin is plain rude at times.


In all fairness could this not be said for others as well? People always have the option of not dealing with someone who uses these tactics, of walking away when they're fed up. I usually also find it rude when someone presses for answers that clearly aren't going to be given.
But I'll be frank. I give people the walk-about because I'm an ass, and when I feel threatened in some way it feels appropriate to use asshole-ish defense mechanisms. I would be a liar if I tried to claim that I haven't lead people on absurd goose chases over nothing before just for the sake of it.
*shrugs*
Call it a personality flaw.
click to expand


Most certainly, people have the choice to walk away too but then again nothing would ever be achieved or done in that manner. One cannot simply walk away from every person whom I have encountered with this issue, which is why I am trying to reach an understanding here. Some of these Virgos I interact with are beyond mere acquaintances and I need to get things done instead of simply turning away or spending an absurd amounts of time trying to analyse their double meaning words.
Yes, I would also find it rude if someone presses for answers (questions of the personal/intimate nature) however the white lies I speak of is over non-important or rather non-personal/intimate issues but matter of fact subjects.

Hmm, I heard that 'ass' commentary before. Allow me to ask this question then- Would you ever pull that move on the ones you are close/care about? If you do, and over time they still let the behaviour go but one day they lay it on the table...would you stop, acknowledge or change?
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

Hmm, I heard that 'ass' commentary before. Allow me to ask this question then- Would you ever pull that move on the ones you are close/care about? If you do, and over time they still let the behaviour go but one day they lay it on the table...would you stop, acknowledge or change?


I've been trying to come up with a way to describe the concrete reasoning behind *my own* double-speak without turning out a novel. It's a complex rationale with shades of psychology and emotional insecurities among other things.
Would I do this to the those I am *closest* to? No, because those few individuals are ones with whom I share an absolute trust. For better or worse they always get the full canon blast.
But concerning anyone less intimate, would I ever change? Doubtful. The 6th isn't the house of repetition for no reason.
Now to all those reading--please bear in mind that I do not speak for all Virgos as I could not possibly know them all or their individual thought and action patterns. I can only know myself and sometimes that too is questionable.
Posted by TMV
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

Hmm, I heard that 'ass' commentary before. Allow me to ask this question then- Would you ever pull that move on the ones you are close/care about? If you do, and over time they still let the behaviour go but one day they lay it on the table...would you stop, acknowledge or change?


I've been trying to come up with a way to describe the concrete reasoning behind *my own* double-speak without turning out a novel. It's a complex rationale with shades of psychology and emotional insecurities among other things.
Would I do this to the those I am *closest* to? No, because those few individuals are ones with whom I share an absolute trust. For better or worse they always get the full canon blast.
But concerning anyone less intimate, would I ever change? Doubtful. The 6th isn't the house of repetition for no reason.
Now to all those reading--please bear in mind that I do not speak for all Virgos as I could not possibly know them all or their individual thought and action patterns. I can only know myself and sometimes that too is questionable.
click to expand



If and when you are able to, I would love to be able to read *your* insight into it even if it turns out to be but a novel.
Otherwise if you are truly unable to...thank you for trying TMV, I do appreciate it. After all it is big enough of an issue for me to come in here to ask for help, any and all help!
my mercury is the 6th. never really thought about it being the Virgo house before
One thing is simple.
Information is power. The power. Knowledge is stronger than any dollar or weapon will ever be. It's the one thing in this world that everyone wants but can never take unless it is given.
When information is withheld, even the silly meaningless tidbits, it can be a childish and passive-aggressive way of giving someone the finger with a great big raspberry.
Posted by TMV
One thing is simple.
Information is power. The power. Knowledge is stronger than any dollar or weapon will ever be. It's the one thing in this world that everyone wants but can never take unless it is given.
When information is withheld, even the silly meaningless tidbits, it can be a childish and passive-aggressive way of giving someone the finger with a great big raspberry.




Beside it being childish and passive-aggressive: Would you go so far as to say it is a way of bringing others into a power-struggle game or is it out of a sense of insecurity and a fear of vulnerability?
TMV, that very same power would keep people out, and when it becomes a habit as a defence mechanism it may slowly trickle into the more meaningful connections you have with people you care about. Probable thoughts and pondering here though, I could very well be mistaken.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

Beside it being childish and passive-aggressive: Would you go so far as to say it is a way of bringing others into a power-struggle game or is it out of a sense of insecurity and a fear of vulnerability?


Could be either/or depending on the situation.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

TMV, that very same power would keep people out,...


There are times when that could very well be the point.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

...and when it becomes a habit as a defence mechanism it may slowly trickle into the more meaningful connections you have with people you care about.
click to expand


Possible, yes.
I keep trying to reply to this topic but my mind gets fuzzy. I know deep down why, I have to explain it in details though and I still can't paint a good enough picture in my mind.
*will get back to this topic*
Posted by Damnata
I keep trying to reply to this topic but my mind gets fuzzy. I know deep down why, I have to explain it in details though and I still can't paint a good enough picture in my mind.
*will get back to this topic*


Take your time dear Virgal, I appreciate you taking the time to actually mull over this topic. The help would be immense. smile
Posted by Ixion120
Although a part of me does wonder what is the context of your relationship with the person...it matters context is everything.



Well, the context have been with colleagues, acquaintances, friends, close friends, significant others etc. It is not a trait that have occurred only in one context which is why I am still painting the questions in a broad enough scope, so as not to limit the possible insight that may be given.
Given that I could understand a bit more as to why it would occur with not so close friends and acquaintances but some of the others, it worries me. Communication is a big key part of understanding another individual, and when that is hinders it bothers me. For the life of me I cannot understand why close friends, significant others and any other people on the higher parts of the priority ladder would pull this, but they do. It makes me ponder at times-

What can I do better to make them feel more comfortable so I can minimise this trait from realising itself as often? Straight Face
Posted by Ixion120
I don't usually embellish, and I don't beat around the bush. So this Virgo from this lot can't really help ya too much.


But thank you for coming by Ixion. smile
I don't see a Virgo trying to change, after all they have analyzed & analyzed & are of the opinion they are "right". Even acknowledging is asking a lot of them. In my experience, they would STOP the conversation & disappear. I find this rigid behavior perplexing in light of the mutable sign.
Posted by bridgelover
I don't see a Virgo trying to change, after all they have analyzed & analyzed & are of the opinion they are "right". Even acknowledging is asking a lot of them. In my experience, they would STOP the conversation & disappear. I find this rigid behavior perplexing in light of the mutable sign.



Well, if they are close enough or you matter enough to them I do happen to see a few attempt to change or be a bit more aware/proactive about it. Even if they are, it does not mean they believe themselves to be "wrong", they still often hold themselves to the "right" however in their minds they are doing it on your behalf, to make you feel better (it has nothing to do with their wrongs nor flaws). Good luck trying to make them see otherwise, it is about as futile as it gets. Straight Face Sad
Although if they are stubborn enough, they will refuse everything and completely shut you out. If they STOP a conversation, sometimes they no longer wish to speak to you about the subject, or feel completely uncomfortable, or they cannot grasp an answer (do not want to lie, I presume), or they are going off to think about what you just brought up.
They are not rigid per se, more like them having a set of values, be it correct or incorrect at large to the world and society, if it is "right" in their eyes, then they will go forward with all actions according to that framework whether you like it or not.

...but then again, keep in mind I am not a Virgo, and these are merely my observations and thoughts. They could be entirely incorrect.
Posted by TheLadyScorpio

They are not rigid per se, more like them having a set of values, be it correct or incorrect at large to the world and society, if it is "right" in their eyes, then they will go forward with all actions according to that framework whether you like it or not.


Fair enough.
Posted by CluelessCancer
This is a very good thread and hits at the core of my issues with Virgos. As a straightforward honest person its very frustrating dealing with the duplicity that is Virgo.



Glad to hear this thread is of some use to you CC, or at least food for thought. However, your situation with that Virgent of yours, is rid with issues which no longer stems itself from sheer duplicity. In fact, he simply might not be interested in you or keeps you on a string. Let it go. Straight Face
Because people don't want the truth. But in reality only certain people will know my truth if u are a pushy person always trying to push something out of me you won't get it. I already know your game you don't care about me you only care to have some thing on me. If you really care about me you won't care if I'll give you an answer or not.
Posted by CluelessCancer
Posted by TheLadyScorpio
Posted by CluelessCancer
This is a very good thread and hits at the core of my issues with Virgos. As a straightforward honest person its very frustrating dealing with the duplicity that is Virgo.



Glad to hear this thread is of some use to you CC, or at least food for thought. However, your situation with that Virgent of yours, is rid with issues which no longer stems itself from sheer duplicity. In fact, he simply might not be interested in you or keeps you on a string. Let it go. Straight Face


I think that too. But then he asks me if i need a ride all the time. When i'm sick how im feeling, he checks up on me throughout the day.
even if he is faking it, stringing me along, he seems to care about me more than 99% of the people in my life it seems.
click to expand



However CC, they are simply naturally helpful individuals, and they truly enjoy being of service (or at least most of them do). In fact, most of the Virgents I know would be helpful to any or all females who are in need of it (damsels in distress, here they come, on the worser days they would even empathise/sympathise with drama queens to make them feel better, and Virgents normally abhor drama).
At times they do not even like the said individual but they would help because that is who they are, with the exception being- if they were utterly betrayed by them in the past, or an equally awful event happened, otherwise they would always offer. Although some of them are very good at offering such services as an opportunity to flirt, but they merely end up as the "Good, Nice, and Friend Zoned" individual. They can be too pure/good at heart, which would be approximately half of them, the other half simply wants a way to get some activity in between the sheets.
Posted by CluelessCancer
I've already second guessed every intention he has...what else am i supposed to do, drive myself crazy.
i don't know why he does the things he does...he's not getting any sex out of me and if he doesn't like me he has a strange way of showing it.
i mean i wouldn't think a person who dislikes you would text/call you good morning.good night.everyday or check up on you or try to hang out with you etc etc


Actually Virgents would. Straight Face