If you could ask the Israeli Government anything..
This topic was created in the Politics forum by missmorals on Saturday, January 10, 2009 and has 87 replies.
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What would you ask?
Here is an extract from a friend of mines article being put forward to Downing Street. Extremely learned and well read friend..
1. Your first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, famously recognised that there was no reason why Arabs should accept their country being stolen from them, but added that they would "perhaps forget in one or two generations time." Several generations later, it is clear that the WORLD will NEVER FORGET! When are you going to implement the recommendations of the Geneva Accord, which allow for the establishment of a SOVEREIGN Palestinian state on the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (in exchange, the Palestinians would recognise Israel as a legitimate state and disarm illegal groups)? If you have no intention of doing this, why not?
2. How do you explain the fact that the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - which signified the UK's commitment to a Jewish homeland in the Middle East - was delayed, not by anti-Semites, but by key figures in the British Jewish community who described it "anti-Semitic in result?"
3. While it is true that some Hebrews have existed in this territory since Egyptian rule in 2000BC, they were invaders and the first wave of proper Jewish immigration did not start until 1887. The Arab identity of Palestine emanated from the Canaanites, who entered Palestine from the Arabian Peninsula in 2500BC and had sovereignty till 1000BC! From then to the present day, the land was conquered by several peoples, including the Romans, the Crusaders, the Persians and the British. However, it is worth noting that the area was under Muslim rule from 638CE to 1099CE, then 1187 to 1914 and EVERYONE, regardless of their religion, was allowed to live and visit Jerusalem safely. Why don't you agree that this validates Arab Muslims' claim to title?
4. The Holocaust was a dreadful crime against humanity and it is hugely encouraging that the Nuremberg Trials were established to try Nazi war criminals. However, why do you then deny the right of other peoples to obtain redress against war crimes by refusing to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court?
Here is an extract from a friend of mines article being put forward to Downing Street. Extremely learned and well read friend..
1. Your first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, famously recognised that there was no reason why Arabs should accept their country being stolen from them, but added that they would "perhaps forget in one or two generations time." Several generations later, it is clear that the WORLD will NEVER FORGET! When are you going to implement the recommendations of the Geneva Accord, which allow for the establishment of a SOVEREIGN Palestinian state on the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (in exchange, the Palestinians would recognise Israel as a legitimate state and disarm illegal groups)? If you have no intention of doing this, why not?
2. How do you explain the fact that the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - which signified the UK's commitment to a Jewish homeland in the Middle East - was delayed, not by anti-Semites, but by key figures in the British Jewish community who described it "anti-Semitic in result?"
3. While it is true that some Hebrews have existed in this territory since Egyptian rule in 2000BC, they were invaders and the first wave of proper Jewish immigration did not start until 1887. The Arab identity of Palestine emanated from the Canaanites, who entered Palestine from the Arabian Peninsula in 2500BC and had sovereignty till 1000BC! From then to the present day, the land was conquered by several peoples, including the Romans, the Crusaders, the Persians and the British. However, it is worth noting that the area was under Muslim rule from 638CE to 1099CE, then 1187 to 1914 and EVERYONE, regardless of their religion, was allowed to live and visit Jerusalem safely. Why don't you agree that this validates Arab Muslims' claim to title?
4. The Holocaust was a dreadful crime against humanity and it is hugely encouraging that the Nuremberg Trials were established to try Nazi war criminals. However, why do you then deny the right of other peoples to obtain redress against war crimes by refusing to ratify the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court?
5. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, rendering them illegal. You refute this on the basis that the land was not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state when it came under Israeli control in the 1967 war (Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1948, while Egypt had taken control of the Gaza Strip). However, who was responsible for taking this sovereignty away in the first place?
6. Article 3 of the Fourth Geneva Convention governs the treatment of civilians in war, prohibiting violence to life and the person and stating that the wounded and sick should be collected and cared for. Why then, have more than 500 Palestinians been killed in Operation Cast Lead, including 100 civilians (as of 4pm on 4th January 2009) yet four Israelis have been killed on the other side? Why are you not following the proper measures to prevent civilian casualties?
7. Following on from the last question, do you implicitly believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Arab ones?
8. While I agree that it is also wrong for civilians of any creed to be killed by Hamas rockets, I would like to point out that these rockets are of a crude nature and have resulted in fewer than ten deaths over the last two years. Do you think it is a fair exchange for the entire civilian population of Gaza to be deprived of food, trade and medicine - especially cancer drugs - as a result of this? If so, why?
9. The Israeli Defence Force recently admitted, in its own interim analysis of Operation Cast Lead, that it overestimated Hamas' ballistic capabilities. Why have you then sent in ground forces to step up the attack on Gaza?
10. The Israeli Defence Force's own Code of Conduct against Palestinian civilians states - among other things - that the use of force must be proportional, soldiers must accord dignity and respect to the Palestinian population and must show proper respect for religious and cultural sites and artifacts. In light of this, can you please explain why the IDF targeted a mosque behind a Gaza hospital on 3rd January 2009, killing twelve people (including six children)?
6. Article 3 of the Fourth Geneva Convention governs the treatment of civilians in war, prohibiting violence to life and the person and stating that the wounded and sick should be collected and cared for. Why then, have more than 500 Palestinians been killed in Operation Cast Lead, including 100 civilians (as of 4pm on 4th January 2009) yet four Israelis have been killed on the other side? Why are you not following the proper measures to prevent civilian casualties?
7. Following on from the last question, do you implicitly believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Arab ones?
8. While I agree that it is also wrong for civilians of any creed to be killed by Hamas rockets, I would like to point out that these rockets are of a crude nature and have resulted in fewer than ten deaths over the last two years. Do you think it is a fair exchange for the entire civilian population of Gaza to be deprived of food, trade and medicine - especially cancer drugs - as a result of this? If so, why?
9. The Israeli Defence Force recently admitted, in its own interim analysis of Operation Cast Lead, that it overestimated Hamas' ballistic capabilities. Why have you then sent in ground forces to step up the attack on Gaza?
10. The Israeli Defence Force's own Code of Conduct against Palestinian civilians states - among other things - that the use of force must be proportional, soldiers must accord dignity and respect to the Palestinian population and must show proper respect for religious and cultural sites and artifacts. In light of this, can you please explain why the IDF targeted a mosque behind a Gaza hospital on 3rd January 2009, killing twelve people (including six children)?
11. Why have you told the world's media that it was Hamas who broke the latest ceasefire, when it was actually yourselves, by bombing Gaza's tunnels in November 2008? I would like to add here that those tunnels were Gaza's only means of getting in food, medicine and were also used by children to travel to school.
12. What steps are you taking to eradicate institutionalised discrimination against non-Jewish residents and dissenting Jews in Israel? (The latter includes violent attacks by IDF soldiers on B'Tselem activists who have lawfully documented human rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by video).
13. Please explain why you think the attacks on Gaza will ensure real security for the Israeli people, as opposed to a means of scoring political points for Ehud Barak's Labor Party?
14. Do you seriously believe that stepping up the attacks on Gaza will eradicate violence from Hamas' side? Please explain the rationale behind this.
12. What steps are you taking to eradicate institutionalised discrimination against non-Jewish residents and dissenting Jews in Israel? (The latter includes violent attacks by IDF soldiers on B'Tselem activists who have lawfully documented human rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by video).
13. Please explain why you think the attacks on Gaza will ensure real security for the Israeli people, as opposed to a means of scoring political points for Ehud Barak's Labor Party?
14. Do you seriously believe that stepping up the attacks on Gaza will eradicate violence from Hamas' side? Please explain the rationale behind this.
Well, I never had the (dubious) pleasure of attending Israeli government meetings, but I can try to answer some of those question to the best of my (very) limited knowledge.
"6. Article 3 of the Fourth Geneva Convention governs the treatment of civilians in war, prohibiting violence to life and the person and stating that the wounded and sick should be collected and cared for. Why then, have more than 500 Palestinians been killed in Operation Cast Lead, including 100 civilians (as of 4pm on 4th January 2009) yet four Israelis have been killed on the other side? Why are you not following the proper measures to prevent civilian casualties?"
That's urban warfare for you. In the second battle of Fallujah, up to 6000 civilians lost their lives(in a month and a half of fighting), in Mogadishu, 200 civilians lost their lives in two days(quite a lot, considering only 160 American soldiers fought there) and in Grozny between 5000-25000. It's terrible, but civilian casualties cannot be avoided in such conflicts.
"7. Following on from the last question, do you implicitly believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Arab ones?"
(nit-picking: around 20% of Israel's citizens are Israeli-Arabs)
If you're asking why the Israeli government believes that Israeli lives are more valuable than non-Israeli lives, well, I don't know if they necessarily think that, but being the Israeli government they are going to go to greater lengths to protect Israelis than they would go for non-Israelis(Israelis are the ones who vote in Israeli elections, you see).
"8. While I agree that it is also wrong for civilians of any creed to be killed by Hamas rockets, I would like to point out that these rockets are of a crude nature and have resulted in fewer than ten deaths over the last two years. Do you think it is a fair exchange for the entire civilian population of Gaza to be deprived of food, trade and medicine - especially cancer drugs - as a result of this? If so, why?"
No, it isn't, but as you acknowledged, Israeli civilians getting killed isn't fair either. There isn't really a fair option on the table, currently. I assume you believe that it's more unfair for the Palestinians to suffer, simply because they suffer more, but that's not really the main concern of the Israeli government. It should be the main concern of the Palestinian government, but, well, that doesn't really seem to be the case.
"6. Article 3 of the Fourth Geneva Convention governs the treatment of civilians in war, prohibiting violence to life and the person and stating that the wounded and sick should be collected and cared for. Why then, have more than 500 Palestinians been killed in Operation Cast Lead, including 100 civilians (as of 4pm on 4th January 2009) yet four Israelis have been killed on the other side? Why are you not following the proper measures to prevent civilian casualties?"
That's urban warfare for you. In the second battle of Fallujah, up to 6000 civilians lost their lives(in a month and a half of fighting), in Mogadishu, 200 civilians lost their lives in two days(quite a lot, considering only 160 American soldiers fought there) and in Grozny between 5000-25000. It's terrible, but civilian casualties cannot be avoided in such conflicts.
"7. Following on from the last question, do you implicitly believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Arab ones?"
(nit-picking: around 20% of Israel's citizens are Israeli-Arabs)
If you're asking why the Israeli government believes that Israeli lives are more valuable than non-Israeli lives, well, I don't know if they necessarily think that, but being the Israeli government they are going to go to greater lengths to protect Israelis than they would go for non-Israelis(Israelis are the ones who vote in Israeli elections, you see).
"8. While I agree that it is also wrong for civilians of any creed to be killed by Hamas rockets, I would like to point out that these rockets are of a crude nature and have resulted in fewer than ten deaths over the last two years. Do you think it is a fair exchange for the entire civilian population of Gaza to be deprived of food, trade and medicine - especially cancer drugs - as a result of this? If so, why?"
No, it isn't, but as you acknowledged, Israeli civilians getting killed isn't fair either. There isn't really a fair option on the table, currently. I assume you believe that it's more unfair for the Palestinians to suffer, simply because they suffer more, but that's not really the main concern of the Israeli government. It should be the main concern of the Palestinian government, but, well, that doesn't really seem to be the case.
"11. Why have you told the world's media that it was Hamas who broke the latest ceasefire, when it was actually yourselves, by bombing Gaza's tunnels in November 2008? I would like to add here that those tunnels were Gaza's only means of getting in food, medicine and were also used by children to travel to school."
A ceasefire means a cessation of fire, considering that the total of 26 rockets and mortars hit Israel from July to October, I don't think that the claim that Israel broke the ceasefire would be accurate.
"12. What steps are you taking to eradicate institutionalised discrimination against non-Jewish residents and dissenting Jews in Israel? (The latter includes violent attacks by IDF soldiers on B'Tselem activists who have lawfully documented human rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by video)."
That's a tough subject. There are some measures taken to try to help the Palestinian populations, such as affirmative action in Israeli universities, but they certainly aren't enough. Unfortunately, as the Palestinian population in Israel keeps wasting its votes on parties that have no chance in hell of getting in the government, it's hard to see the situation changing drastically in the near future(though I hope we'll see an improvement, nevertheless).
"13. Please explain why you think the attacks on Gaza will ensure real security for the Israeli people, as opposed to a means of scoring political points for Ehud Barak's Labor Party?"
I don't think it's meant to ensure long-term security, but I think it might gain the people living in southern Israel at least a brief respite from the attacks, following the eventual ceasefire.
A ceasefire means a cessation of fire, considering that the total of 26 rockets and mortars hit Israel from July to October, I don't think that the claim that Israel broke the ceasefire would be accurate.
"12. What steps are you taking to eradicate institutionalised discrimination against non-Jewish residents and dissenting Jews in Israel? (The latter includes violent attacks by IDF soldiers on B'Tselem activists who have lawfully documented human rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip by video)."
That's a tough subject. There are some measures taken to try to help the Palestinian populations, such as affirmative action in Israeli universities, but they certainly aren't enough. Unfortunately, as the Palestinian population in Israel keeps wasting its votes on parties that have no chance in hell of getting in the government, it's hard to see the situation changing drastically in the near future(though I hope we'll see an improvement, nevertheless).
"13. Please explain why you think the attacks on Gaza will ensure real security for the Israeli people, as opposed to a means of scoring political points for Ehud Barak's Labor Party?"
I don't think it's meant to ensure long-term security, but I think it might gain the people living in southern Israel at least a brief respite from the attacks, following the eventual ceasefire.
*err, mortar shells. They haven't been lobbing mortars at us.
Israeli main argument is to bring down Hamas...Hamas IS the democractically elected government of Palestine..so if they are fighting Hamas, they are fighting the whole so called country..Doesn't it sound familiar to the events in Iraq..and trying to bring down Saddam with his weapons of mass destruction..well why annihilate the whole country to smithereens then. The whole country did not back Saddam, just as the whole of Palestine does not support Hamas.
It is all about power and the retention of land. The fighting is totally disproportionate..Israel is in violation of the arms export control act.
How exactly does Israel 'defend' itself by raining missiles and bombs into the territory it occupies? As Jerome Slater put it: 'An oppressor is not engaged in "self defense" when it uses force in order to annihilate resistance to its repression, and that holds true even if the form of resistance--attacks intended to kill civilians--is itself morally wrong.'
It is all about power and the retention of land. The fighting is totally disproportionate..Israel is in violation of the arms export control act.
How exactly does Israel 'defend' itself by raining missiles and bombs into the territory it occupies? As Jerome Slater put it: 'An oppressor is not engaged in "self defense" when it uses force in order to annihilate resistance to its repression, and that holds true even if the form of resistance--attacks intended to kill civilians--is itself morally wrong.'
War only has one purpose..it is the last resort and its aim is to kill the masses.
This situation is by no means the last resort...
This situation is by no means the last resort...
To quote Robert Fisk "we'll hear all these scandalous fabrications again. We'll have the Hamas-to-blame lie ? heaven knows, there is enough to blame them for without adding this crime ? and we may well have the bodies-from-the-cemetery lie and we'll almost certainly have the Hamas-was-in-the-UN-school lie and we will very definitely have the anti-Semitism lie. And our leaders will huff and puff and remind the world that Hamas originally broke the ceasefire. It didn't. Israel broke it, first on 4 November when its bombardment killed six Palestinians in Gaza and again on 17 November when another bombardment killed four more Palestinians."
"Israeli main argument is to bring down Hamas..."
If by that you mean that it is Israel's aim to topple the Hamas in this conflict then I have to say I'm unaware of it.
"It is all about power and the retention of land. The fighting is totally disproportionate..Israel is in violation of the arms export control act."
If by disproportionate you mean that Israel is using greater force than necessary to stop the attacks on its civilian population, it really doesn't seem to be the case, as Hamas has recently refused a ceasefire, and continues to shoot its rockets at Israel
If by disproportionate you mean that Israel is harming the Palestinians much more than the Palestinians harmed the Israelis prior to the conflict, then I don't think that's really relevant. Israel isn't committing an act of revenge, it's trying to stop the Hamas from killing its citizens.
"How exactly does Israel 'defend' itself by raining missiles and bombs into the territory it occupies? As Jerome Slater put it: 'An oppressor is not engaged in "self defense" when it uses force in order to annihilate resistance to its repression, and that holds true even if the form of resistance--attacks intended to kill civilians--is itself morally wrong.'"
I might be missing something here, but how were the Gazans repressed prior to this conflict?(and no, I don't consider the blockade a form of repression)
If by that you mean that it is Israel's aim to topple the Hamas in this conflict then I have to say I'm unaware of it.
"It is all about power and the retention of land. The fighting is totally disproportionate..Israel is in violation of the arms export control act."
If by disproportionate you mean that Israel is using greater force than necessary to stop the attacks on its civilian population, it really doesn't seem to be the case, as Hamas has recently refused a ceasefire, and continues to shoot its rockets at Israel
If by disproportionate you mean that Israel is harming the Palestinians much more than the Palestinians harmed the Israelis prior to the conflict, then I don't think that's really relevant. Israel isn't committing an act of revenge, it's trying to stop the Hamas from killing its citizens.
"How exactly does Israel 'defend' itself by raining missiles and bombs into the territory it occupies? As Jerome Slater put it: 'An oppressor is not engaged in "self defense" when it uses force in order to annihilate resistance to its repression, and that holds true even if the form of resistance--attacks intended to kill civilians--is itself morally wrong.'"
I might be missing something here, but how were the Gazans repressed prior to this conflict?(and no, I don't consider the blockade a form of repression)
?If by disproportionate you mean that Israel is using greater force than necessary to stop the attacks on its civilian population, it really doesn't seem to be the case, as Hamas has recently refused a ceasefire, and continues to shoot its rockets at Israel?
Yes disproportionate in using greater force than necessary. Recognised by everyone apart from Israel and the UN or should I say the UN council to the US council..they should be tried for war crimes!.. Gaza has no army, no navy, no air force and have been under a constant blockade..What has refusing of ceasefire got to do with disproportionate use of arms? How much damage can rockets do in comparison to F16 jets, apache helicopters and cluster bombs? That's what I am referring to when I say disproportionate.
Yes disproportionate in using greater force than necessary. Recognised by everyone apart from Israel and the UN or should I say the UN council to the US council..they should be tried for war crimes!.. Gaza has no army, no navy, no air force and have been under a constant blockade..What has refusing of ceasefire got to do with disproportionate use of arms? How much damage can rockets do in comparison to F16 jets, apache helicopters and cluster bombs? That's what I am referring to when I say disproportionate.
"I might be missing something here"
what you actually are missing is the facts that
- we all have big fear of Pluto in Capricorn
- and a year 2009 which started right after Starun-Uranus-Opposition
- (and the historical american election)
- and the economy recession.
The way Isreal/Palestine started the new year has no better effect on all of us but even more fear and nervosity of future and more negative waves.
Some folks have forgotten the taste of peace. The rest do not want to be forced to forget it. Is human being powerful enough to stop/weaken these waves. We will see.
what you actually are missing is the facts that
- we all have big fear of Pluto in Capricorn
- and a year 2009 which started right after Starun-Uranus-Opposition
- (and the historical american election)
- and the economy recession.
The way Isreal/Palestine started the new year has no better effect on all of us but even more fear and nervosity of future and more negative waves.
Some folks have forgotten the taste of peace. The rest do not want to be forced to forget it. Is human being powerful enough to stop/weaken these waves. We will see.
Hamas is committed to Israel's annihilation and still they get voted to power - and you defend it by saying that its a democratic choice and perfectly valid ?
And perhaps you are aggrieved by the deaths of a number of arab muslims, aren't you ? Your stand will be morally justified when you start denouncing ( not just on the boards but internally ) every form of unjust violence. Please stop for a while and think about how much equality mercy and affection does hardline Islam reserve for the minorities :
To quote Washington Post :
This is a Saudi textbook (After the intolerance was removed )-
FIRST GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Every religion other than Islam is false."
"Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Islam, hellfire): Every religion other than ______________ is false. Whoever dies outside of Islam enters ____________."
FIFTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot maintain a loyal friendship with those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives."
"It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam."
SIXTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Just as Muslims were successful in the past when they came together in a sincere endeavor to evict the Christian crusaders from Palestine, so will the Arabs and Muslims emerge victorious, God willing, against the Jews and their allies if they stand together and fight a true jihad for God, for this is within God's power."
EIGHTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As cited in Ibn Abbas: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus."
NINTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills."
"It is part of God's wisdom that the struggle between the Muslim and the Jews should continue until the hour [of judgment]."
"Muslims will triumph because they are right.
And perhaps you are aggrieved by the deaths of a number of arab muslims, aren't you ? Your stand will be morally justified when you start denouncing ( not just on the boards but internally ) every form of unjust violence. Please stop for a while and think about how much equality mercy and affection does hardline Islam reserve for the minorities :
To quote Washington Post :
This is a Saudi textbook (After the intolerance was removed )-
FIRST GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Every religion other than Islam is false."
"Fill in the blanks with the appropriate words (Islam, hellfire): Every religion other than ______________ is false. Whoever dies outside of Islam enters ____________."
FIFTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot maintain a loyal friendship with those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives."
"It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam."
SIXTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Just as Muslims were successful in the past when they came together in a sincere endeavor to evict the Christian crusaders from Palestine, so will the Arabs and Muslims emerge victorious, God willing, against the Jews and their allies if they stand together and fight a true jihad for God, for this is within God's power."
EIGHTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As cited in Ibn Abbas: The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus."
NINTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills."
"It is part of God's wisdom that the struggle between the Muslim and the Jews should continue until the hour [of judgment]."
"Muslims will triumph because they are right.
ELEVENTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The greeting 'Peace be upon you' is specifically for believers. It cannot be said to others."
"If one comes to a place where there is a mixture of Muslims and infidels, one should offer a greeting intended for the Muslims."
"Do not yield to them [Christians and Jews] on a narrow road out of honor and respect."
TWELFTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam. This religion arose through jihad and through jihad was its banner raised high. It is one of the noblest acts, which brings one closer to God, and one of the most magnificent acts of obedience to God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To quote Mr. Tariq Rahman Ph.D Professor of Lingusitics and South Asian Studies, Qaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad:
"It is a fact that the textbooks cannot mention Hindus without calling them cunning, scheming, deceptive or something equally insulting. Students are taught and made to believe that Pakistan needs strong and aggressive policies against India or else Pakistan will be annihilated by it."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The greeting 'Peace be upon you' is specifically for believers. It cannot be said to others."
"If one comes to a place where there is a mixture of Muslims and infidels, one should offer a greeting intended for the Muslims."
"Do not yield to them [Christians and Jews] on a narrow road out of honor and respect."
TWELFTH GRADE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam. This religion arose through jihad and through jihad was its banner raised high. It is one of the noblest acts, which brings one closer to God, and one of the most magnificent acts of obedience to God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To quote Mr. Tariq Rahman Ph.D Professor of Lingusitics and South Asian Studies, Qaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad:
"It is a fact that the textbooks cannot mention Hindus without calling them cunning, scheming, deceptive or something equally insulting. Students are taught and made to believe that Pakistan needs strong and aggressive policies against India or else Pakistan will be annihilated by it."
Personally, I dont get perturbed by such reports more than what is normal and natural. The point that am trying to emphasize here is that you have to listen to the voices coming from all the sides.
"Is it really so hard for Brits to understand?....the people who attacked the Falklands?"
We can write volumes on the dubious standards which the US and UK have known to adopt. And in the same vein we can speak about the hypocrisy of every country/culture/civilization - therez no end to it.
We can write volumes on the dubious standards which the US and UK have known to adopt. And in the same vein we can speak about the hypocrisy of every country/culture/civilization - therez no end to it.
MM,
"How much damage can rockets do in comparison to F16 jets, apache helicopters and cluster bombs? That's what I am referring to when I say disproportionate."
Should they leave their weapons at home because it's unsportsmanlike?
GA,
Well, in all fairness Wahabists are considered fairly batshit by other Muslims. Or so I've heard, anyway.
Good to see you, anyways.
"How much damage can rockets do in comparison to F16 jets, apache helicopters and cluster bombs? That's what I am referring to when I say disproportionate."
Should they leave their weapons at home because it's unsportsmanlike?
GA,
Well, in all fairness Wahabists are considered fairly batshit by other Muslims. Or so I've heard, anyway.
Good to see you, anyways.
"Well, in all fairness Wahabists are considered fairly batbutter by other Muslims"
Yes even I have read the same Yuma - and am glad about it of course. But the Wahabis tend to have a strong influence on some sections of our neighbourhood.
BTW - good that you are responding to this thread - however controversial, the images were very disturbing and I believe that Israel is rightfully being criticized in parts.
Yes even I have read the same Yuma - and am glad about it of course. But the Wahabis tend to have a strong influence on some sections of our neighbourhood.
BTW - good that you are responding to this thread - however controversial, the images were very disturbing and I believe that Israel is rightfully being criticized in parts.
"They both sound like they are guilty of war crimes."
I agree.
I agree.
"Frankly, GA that sounds about true for almost ALL mono/theistic religions"
And that disturbs me a lot - usage of hate as a platform for conviction.
And that disturbs me a lot - usage of hate as a platform for conviction.
"BTW - good that you are responding to this thread - however controversial, the images were very disturbing and I believe that Israel is rightfully being criticized in parts."
Yup, and it's only going to get worst when the third stage will begin.
Yup, and it's only going to get worst when the third stage will begin.
IsraHELL or US are the same.
I am on my way out to yet another rally..but Gaurav again you have come in with your stupid ass thesis and made this about religion. This is about humanity and a power taking advantage with full force against a weaker component. Yes the weak are pissed on by just about everyone. Now if Israel was not backed by US and every other western power, do you think they would stand a chance?
Hamas whether you see it as a terrorist organisation or not, is defending it's country...If Hamas were doing what Israel are doing now, they WOULD be tried for war crimes..Why don't YOU try seeing things from both sides of the coin rather than concentrate on the terrorist aspect of it. So easy isn't it when it's about a muslim country to attach the terrorist label.
Yes every country has a right to defend itself. But what you are seeing is disproportionate use of force..totally unjustified..Is Israel incapable of a diplomatic decision..of course it is, but when the UN/US are not interested in the peace process, Israel are given rights to continue what they do. The peace rallies taking place across the world have a voice that includes Jews and Israelis, we are joined in raising awareness of the injustice of these attacks. Provocation came from Israel just as it always does. How is this about Islam? please explain.
Try and stick to the facts of the current situation instead of making this about Islam.
As Xun said, the geneva convention is a load of bollox. One country refuses to take part in it allowing them to be excluded from atrocities it commits across the world.
Hamas whether you see it as a terrorist organisation or not, is defending it's country...If Hamas were doing what Israel are doing now, they WOULD be tried for war crimes..Why don't YOU try seeing things from both sides of the coin rather than concentrate on the terrorist aspect of it. So easy isn't it when it's about a muslim country to attach the terrorist label.
Yes every country has a right to defend itself. But what you are seeing is disproportionate use of force..totally unjustified..Is Israel incapable of a diplomatic decision..of course it is, but when the UN/US are not interested in the peace process, Israel are given rights to continue what they do. The peace rallies taking place across the world have a voice that includes Jews and Israelis, we are joined in raising awareness of the injustice of these attacks. Provocation came from Israel just as it always does. How is this about Islam? please explain.
Try and stick to the facts of the current situation instead of making this about Islam.
As Xun said, the geneva convention is a load of bollox. One country refuses to take part in it allowing them to be excluded from atrocities it commits across the world.
Call it lack of information or doped by the Jewish controlled main stream media!
Israel is an illegal country and for your information it is based on terrorist ideology (Zionist)
Way to go missmorals? you have my 120% supports on this matter.
Israel is an illegal country and for your information it is based on terrorist ideology (Zionist)
Way to go missmorals? you have my 120% supports on this matter.
Frankly Missmorals - I would be proved wrong if I come to know that you have participated in such rallies against injustice/es before or you intend express neutral condemnation in the future. And if you genuinely feel that it is not about Ummah and only humanity - then I agree to your viewpoint.
So when has a hindu gone out to a rally that isn't india related? please do enlighten me...they just go with the rest of the herd..hoping nobody notices them being different I guess. Must suck not to be in the limelight sticking up for what you believe in. If there is ever a rally in London about some atrocity committed against India that the whole world condems you will find me there..At the end of the day, we stemmed from the same country..whether it's known as something different now means jack shit to me..
Truth is, whether you choose to believe it or not, if it's one of your own, the pain is somewhat intensified..I don't know if anyone else feels that but I certainly do and I am not ashamed to admit it..and what is so wrong about that? a black man will stick up for a fellow black, a white man will stick up for a fellow white, just a muslim will stuck up for another muslim..isn't it human nature to stand up for what one believes or does turning a blind eye to fit in with the rest of the human population the right way to go about things?
Extremists/fundamentalists have been around in all mono religions..Islam is no different..Media just focuses everything on islamist terrorists...you fart and it's a terrorist activity. How do you fight an enemy that is prepared to kill itself. Where do they stem from? hatred..Human beings aren't born with hatred running through their veins, something drives them to be that way..INJUSTICE
Muslims across the world have openly condemmed terrorist acts..but every single time there is an atrocity in the world concerning a muslim country, why should we as moderate muslims feel inclined to stand up and condem the acts of a few nutcases..
Christianity, Judaism, Islam started in the same place..such a shame they can't just get along as first and foremost human beings. Wasn't that the message of religion..throughout the prophecies.
But this isn't about muslims or terrorist activities or religion..this is about unnecessary civilians lives being lost. I thought precision fighting machines avoided civilian deaths! Silly me..
Truth is, whether you choose to believe it or not, if it's one of your own, the pain is somewhat intensified..I don't know if anyone else feels that but I certainly do and I am not ashamed to admit it..and what is so wrong about that? a black man will stick up for a fellow black, a white man will stick up for a fellow white, just a muslim will stuck up for another muslim..isn't it human nature to stand up for what one believes or does turning a blind eye to fit in with the rest of the human population the right way to go about things?
Extremists/fundamentalists have been around in all mono religions..Islam is no different..Media just focuses everything on islamist terrorists...you fart and it's a terrorist activity. How do you fight an enemy that is prepared to kill itself. Where do they stem from? hatred..Human beings aren't born with hatred running through their veins, something drives them to be that way..INJUSTICE
Muslims across the world have openly condemmed terrorist acts..but every single time there is an atrocity in the world concerning a muslim country, why should we as moderate muslims feel inclined to stand up and condem the acts of a few nutcases..
Christianity, Judaism, Islam started in the same place..such a shame they can't just get along as first and foremost human beings. Wasn't that the message of religion..throughout the prophecies.
But this isn't about muslims or terrorist activities or religion..this is about unnecessary civilians lives being lost. I thought precision fighting machines avoided civilian deaths! Silly me..
MM wrote: "the symbollic shoe throwing"
did they take it from "Wag the Dog"?
did they take it from "Wag the Dog"?
I have no idea..haven't seen it to be honest..
Was it you that said pluto is going in capricorn? what does that entail? sounds interesting..
And this year seems to have started on a symbollic kinda note..so many weird things happening everywhere..
And this year seems to have started on a symbollic kinda note..so many weird things happening everywhere..
1. Global recession
2. America's first black president since god knows when
3. Interest rate dropping to 1.5% in the UK..lowest since 1694!..my god..VAT dropping to 15% ..
4. Lehman brothers going bust..that's major in itself..I guess as big as Freddy Mac & Fannie Mae..(odd names so funny!)
Bizarrio things going on...the end of the world is nigh...waaaaaah
2. America's first black president since god knows when
3. Interest rate dropping to 1.5% in the UK..lowest since 1694!..my god..VAT dropping to 15% ..
4. Lehman brothers going bust..that's major in itself..I guess as big as Freddy Mac & Fannie Mae..(odd names so funny!)
Bizarrio things going on...the end of the world is nigh...waaaaaah
Its nmot going to work. ALthough i am not clear about the recnet events in oisrael, I am sure that the issue will never end unless one of them backs down. Even so, making a big issue about it would not doing anything good. If I were you, I would go to palestine and join the war effort.
The israelities had US backing, that makes them have the right to dick artound as much as they want, and the Muslims can do nothing about it other than raising the price of oil, which makes things sucks for the resyt of us in this oil dependent economy.
The israelities had US backing, that makes them have the right to dick artound as much as they want, and the Muslims can do nothing about it other than raising the price of oil, which makes things sucks for the resyt of us in this oil dependent economy.
The answer to all of these questions is very simple - when it comes to religion laws, civility, and soveriegn rights mean nothing. People have fought and died over matters of religion and faith for thousands of years and no one - not the Israeli's or Palestinians, or anyone else is simply going to abandon what they believe to be their holy land because someone else wants it.
You can hardly blame Israel for using the weapons and support offered by the US - if it were offered to Palestine they would have taken it - and who would you feel sorry for then? And why hasn't anyone offered the same aid to Palestine? Could it have anything to do with the religious fanatacism of many Arab nations often resulting in terrorism of other nations?......
I'm not speculating about which side is right or wrong - but it all comes down to exactly the same thing - each wants the land for themselves and neither is going to walk away from it.
You can hardly blame Israel for using the weapons and support offered by the US - if it were offered to Palestine they would have taken it - and who would you feel sorry for then? And why hasn't anyone offered the same aid to Palestine? Could it have anything to do with the religious fanatacism of many Arab nations often resulting in terrorism of other nations?......
I'm not speculating about which side is right or wrong - but it all comes down to exactly the same thing - each wants the land for themselves and neither is going to walk away from it.
"The biggest problem I see with muslim countries is...Typical of Islamics. Use the innocent public to hide behind while commiting atrosocities"
do all muslim countries have the same behaviour?
How many different muslim countries do we have?
and how many are involved in suicde bombing.
Of course you can multiply it if you talk this to yourself and to them for some decades.
It depends on whether you want to see the potential of earth polulation for peace or its potential for war. It depends realy on you. There are muslim cities with couple of millions of population where they are living together as peaceful as it is possible for other crowded cities. (Let local crime and mafia out like we would do for the USA when we say they live in peace.)
do all muslim countries have the same behaviour?
How many different muslim countries do we have?
and how many are involved in suicde bombing.
Of course you can multiply it if you talk this to yourself and to them for some decades.
It depends on whether you want to see the potential of earth polulation for peace or its potential for war. It depends realy on you. There are muslim cities with couple of millions of population where they are living together as peaceful as it is possible for other crowded cities. (Let local crime and mafia out like we would do for the USA when we say they live in peace.)
my dear isrial BOMB, BOMB, BOMB,--- BOMB, BOMB IRAN GET IT OVER WITH.
i DO NOT KNOW ITS BUSHES TUNE OR RAGEN ONE OF THE AMERICAN PRES.
true but a u.s. pres said it off stage and got picked up on a mike. i think it was regan
Sorry guys, was away for a couple of days..so anyways, back to it..
This has overall given one perspective and that is that shit really does stick. Negativity will always reign longer than positive aspects. It's like when you read reviews about a new product/service..the review will contain 15 positive comments and 2 negative..but the 2 negative comments can really sway our decision on purchasing it or believing in it..So in this case, it seems media has really brainwashed the masses. Sad to hear so much negativity re the muslim nations.
Nov_scorp: "Oh and the US is part of the Geneva Convention"
Really? shocking revelation..funny how they pick and choose what elements of it applies to them..oh the power..and it's ability to corrupt.
Xun: "But as a muslim supporter can you see beyond someone's religion which isn't muslim?"
Believe it or not, first and foremost I am a human being with immense love for all fellow human beings...so I see them as a living breathing soul be it muslim, christian, hindu, jew, whatever..we are all made exactly the same way. I am a muslim and an extremely proud one, I practise but I don't impose because my religion doesn't teach me to ram it down anyones throat or shout it from the rooftops, it promotoes humility and modesty in all respects. And it gives me inner peace. Prayer is like meditation..imagine chanting mantra's whilst doing yoga moves..it teaches discipline..Therefore in answer to your question, everyone is equal as most religions promote..
I have seen the most non religious folk, the biggest of non-believers in moments of strife, look up to the sky and pray..Ultimately they do believe in a higher being whether they choose to admit it or not.
If corruption exists, it is created by man not faith. No faith out there promotes acts of terrorism to kill innocent lives. Jihad is taken completely out of context...you have to read into the whole meaning in context of what is being read. I am as much of a scholar as those men walking around with beards down to their ankles claiming to be true muslims. Truth is that the beard was worn by our Prophet. As muslims we are encouraged to lead the life of the Sunnah (i.e the life of the prophet)..It's not compulsory..It's a choice..Unforunately these fanatics wear the beard like a designer label to hide behind the ugly heart they may have been burdened with and make it about Islam. It's not.
Anyways, I am not here to give a religious lecture..lol..I am here to rai
This has overall given one perspective and that is that shit really does stick. Negativity will always reign longer than positive aspects. It's like when you read reviews about a new product/service..the review will contain 15 positive comments and 2 negative..but the 2 negative comments can really sway our decision on purchasing it or believing in it..So in this case, it seems media has really brainwashed the masses. Sad to hear so much negativity re the muslim nations.
Nov_scorp: "Oh and the US is part of the Geneva Convention"
Really? shocking revelation..funny how they pick and choose what elements of it applies to them..oh the power..and it's ability to corrupt.
Xun: "But as a muslim supporter can you see beyond someone's religion which isn't muslim?"
Believe it or not, first and foremost I am a human being with immense love for all fellow human beings...so I see them as a living breathing soul be it muslim, christian, hindu, jew, whatever..we are all made exactly the same way. I am a muslim and an extremely proud one, I practise but I don't impose because my religion doesn't teach me to ram it down anyones throat or shout it from the rooftops, it promotoes humility and modesty in all respects. And it gives me inner peace. Prayer is like meditation..imagine chanting mantra's whilst doing yoga moves..it teaches discipline..Therefore in answer to your question, everyone is equal as most religions promote..
I have seen the most non religious folk, the biggest of non-believers in moments of strife, look up to the sky and pray..Ultimately they do believe in a higher being whether they choose to admit it or not.
If corruption exists, it is created by man not faith. No faith out there promotes acts of terrorism to kill innocent lives. Jihad is taken completely out of context...you have to read into the whole meaning in context of what is being read. I am as much of a scholar as those men walking around with beards down to their ankles claiming to be true muslims. Truth is that the beard was worn by our Prophet. As muslims we are encouraged to lead the life of the Sunnah (i.e the life of the prophet)..It's not compulsory..It's a choice..Unforunately these fanatics wear the beard like a designer label to hide behind the ugly heart they may have been burdened with and make it about Islam. It's not.
Anyways, I am not here to give a religious lecture..lol..I am here to rai
Anyways, I am not here to give a religious lecture..lol..I am here to raise awareness with the injustice suffered by the Palestinian folk of this disputed land by the US backed Israel.
Israeli soldiers break the silence
Israeli soldiers break the silence
Whether the above is real or propaganda by the Israeli Zionists, I have no idea..
"Whether the above is real or propaganda by the Israeli Zionists, I have no idea.."
What would Israeli Zionists stand to gain from this propaganda?
What would Israeli Zionists stand to gain from this propaganda?
Controlled media? I have no idea Yums..but as you can see the trust is lost on both sides I guess..
nov_scorp
Question is who do you call terrorist in the first place.. anyone who does not agree with you terms are terrorist..?
Question is who do you call terrorist in the first place.. anyone who does not agree with you terms are terrorist..?
You ask me to believe that thing..??
One man??s freedom fighter is the others terrorist??_. Again who is the terrorist..?
The one who is steeling the other countries recourses by politics.. By corruptions??_ by MILITARY forces....??
They are not the terrorist right..??
But they fight back they are terrorist..!
Again.. who is the terrorist..??
One man??s freedom fighter is the others terrorist??_. Again who is the terrorist..?
The one who is steeling the other countries recourses by politics.. By corruptions??_ by MILITARY forces....??
They are not the terrorist right..??
But they fight back they are terrorist..!
Again.. who is the terrorist..??
9/11 and London bombing is a myth... calculated strategic targets... designed by CIA/MI6 and Mossad!
Read the history and google it if you are not retard..!
Again.. who is the terrorist..??
If I am resisting and defending my country/my family/my property/my belonging/my culture my history.. am I still a terrorist..?
Wake up..!
Read the history and google it if you are not retard..!
Again.. who is the terrorist..??
If I am resisting and defending my country/my family/my property/my belonging/my culture my history.. am I still a terrorist..?
Wake up..!
Back in wwII every Norwegian who fought against Nazi was TERRORIST..
Flying Planes into buldings
Bombing london buses
How is THAT defending your country???
Bombing london buses
How is THAT defending your country???
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